The future of prog

[Nicky007]

This forum has become a bit sleepy to my mind, so let me shatter you a bit.

I'd like to hear your guesses on the future of prog. Do you think that:

more and more people will listen to prog?
there will be a growing difference in the quality of prog?
there will be a growing difference between American, British, Scandinavian, German, (and I better include Dutch) prog?
we'll have excellent prog sung in German, French, Swedish, Hebrew, and other languages?
prog groups will deal increasingly with environmental and animal rights issues?
with metaphysical and religious issues?
we'll see more older people making excellent prog?
prog will be used more for educational purposes?
for therapeutical purposes?
Arena will win the European Schlagerfestival one fine day?

The last question is the tricky one.

Any more questions?

So, friends, whaddaya think?

Nicky.

[Appelmoes??]

more and more people will listen to prog?
Not likely, I think prog has a very steady but faithful fanbase.

there will be a growing difference in the quality of prog?
I think that only happens when a genre becomes popular. In the Netherlands Within Tempation got in the charts some time ago, and ofcourse a lot of new bands appeared that tried to sound like WT. Clones so to speak of. But since prog isn't the most popular choice in music ánd because most progmusicians care about quality, we don't have to be afraid of that.

there will be a growing difference between American, British, Scandinavian, German, (and I better include Dutch) prog?
A good prog band has it's own style and sound, so they all sound different

we'll have excellent prog sung in German, French, Swedish, Hebrew, and other languages?
There probably already is, but to be honoust I don't go out searching for Hebrew prog for example. But that personal, I know some people that have (in this case) metal from a lot of countries.

prog groups will deal increasingly with environmental and animal rights issues?
Aren't they already?
Arena: The hanging Tree
Threshold: The Wounded Land album
DT: The Great Debate

with metaphysical and religious issues?
As a christian I know some religious prog. Not just Neal Morse, but also unknown bands. (Unknown because most pretty much suck...)

we'll see more older people making excellent prog?
There's a lot of "neo-prog" out there, I just don't like it. So for me this will probably be true

prog will be used more for educational purposes?
Hmm, some DT for ethical-class, some Flower Kings for inspiration during art-class... This could be the ticket to Utopia!
So I guess that's not very likely to happen

for therapeutical purposes?
My roommate studies musictherapy and they use the patients favourite music. So if the patient likes prog, they use that.

Arena will win the European Schlagerfestival one fine day?
 

[PH]

  Good questions!
more and more people will listen to prog?
To be honest, yes I think so. People who like it will have children who might like it, just need to be woken up (happened with me).
And of course we keep spreading the word. I don't think the total number will decrease, only increase, not very fast, but that's not a problem.

there will be a growing difference in the quality of prog?
I think so. Some progressive bands try to play like bands from the 70's. Some succeed (Spock's Beard, The Flowerkings (although I don't like them that much)) and some fail because they sound like too much chords in which they play solos, and they play to much solos... (Man, that sounded stupid...)
Then there's the true progressive bands in the truest sense of the word. Bands like Frost, Pure Reason Revolution, Porcupine Tree and Dream Theater. This is arguable I know, please don't bite. So to me the failing bands should stop making progressive (70's music) music and try "Progressive" music.

there will be a growing difference between American, British, Scandinavian, German, (and I better include Dutch) prog?
Same with Appelmoes?? here! But, it looks as if Scandinavian, German and other not American or British prog are rising.
I was pleasantly surprised with bands like Satellite (Poland), A.C.T (Sweden), Neuschwanstein (Germany), RPWL (Germany) and a lot more I don't remember.

we'll have excellent prog sung in German, French, Swedish, Hebrew, and other languages?
Same with Appelmoes?? again. I prefer English, or maybe German 'cause I understand that. Kaipa's an exception (Sweden) amazing music (speaking of their first three albums) sung in Swedish.

prog groups will deal increasingly with environmental and animal rights issues?
Errmmm... don't know... They did already (don't know about animal rights though, they do about human rights!).

with metaphysical and religious issues?
Possibly. Since Neal Morse's convertion. And Dream Theater seems to have more and more religious lyrics. (Root Of All Evil, I Walk Beside You, and many more)
Also Threshold. The keyboard player is a christian and you can see it because of the lyrics. Brilliant christian lyrics. I find them brilliant 'cause I'm a christian myself, so I encourage bands becoming christian! Although don't turn into silly christian bands, most suck indeed.

we'll see more older people making excellent prog?
Yup, people grow older, that's normal. If they keep playing music, then the music will be made by older people.
It's the young people that is more unlikely to make excellent prog. But they do, I think (Pure Reason Revolution, they're not really that old are they?) etc etc.

prog will be used more for educational purposes?
That would be cool and very interesting, since I think Prog makes you intelligent!

for therapeutical purposes?
I don't know, but if it's true what Appelmoes?? says, than I agree with him.

Arena will win the European Schlagerfestival one fine day?
Definately!

[Nicky007]

Thanks a lot for your answers, Appelmoes?? and PH. They were very interesting and made me think in new ways.

I also realised that you guys are seriously freaked out. I really laughed a lot. God, how did you get such crazy minds? Did your parents screw around with Marsmen and -women?

I hope some more people comment on these questions. Would be interesting to get even more perspectives.

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

I agree with PH, I also think that common interest in prog will grow, but very slowly, and I think too that a lot of it will happen because of kids growing up with proggie parents.

It's probably the same as with interest in, say Shakespeare. Most people have a very abstract respect for him, consider his dramas as very remote from their daily life, and his language as pretentious.

If kids are intelligent and have parents who are Shakespeare enthusiasts, the kids are likely to absorb a lot of Shakespearean stuff over time, and they'll probably, after some years of revolt, pursue this occupation.

In my case, my parents were moderately interested in Shakespeare, not at all in prog, and these passions had to wait till pretty late in my life, till about 50.

My passion for Shakespeare came about because of a growing interest in the English language. All of a sudden I could actually understand what the guy was saying.

My interest in prog was very contrary to my environment, family, friends and colleagues. (I think a lot of you know it.) A lot of it was due to a longlasting love for Floyd, my own dabblings with the guitar in my teens, and a growing disgust with all the crap that they shove into the radio programs.

See, what got all these ravings here going was that I noticed that we have some mates in this forum who are in their teens (Happy Birthday, Invisible_Jen). It would be very interesting to hear how they at such a tender age (tenderer than yours, PH) can appreciate such advanced music as Arena's.

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

Hey, Maddox, how about commenting on some of these questions? Would be interesting to have your take, as you're more heavy than the other two guys.

I might be poking fun at you marsh monsters, but then again, you're the only active people in these parts of the Room, apart from this crazy Brane (British Dane), or Drit, or whatever.

Nicky.

[johninblack]

more and more people will listen to prog?

That very much depends on the number of new bands formed by younger people. while the majorty of prog bands and prog listeners are around 40-50 you really can't expect too many younger people identifing with Prog, Fortunatly there are new younger band emerging, at the moment perhaps not enough to increase the number of people listening but maybe just enough to maintain it at its present level.

there will be a growing difference in the quality of prog?

I think that happens anyway. Always has always will.

there will be a growing difference between American, British, Scandinavian, German, (and I better include Dutch) prog?

Yes sure, while at the moment British prog is probably predominant there are several new American bands gaining recognition perticularly in the prog-metel area. To my mind this is something which will constantly be changing.

we'll have excellent prog sung in German, French, Swedish, Hebrew, and other languages?

Most likely there will be, however I don't expect to hear a Klingon Prog concept album any time soon.

prog groups will deal increasingly with environmental and animal rights issues?

Yes, the 'wizards and castles' era is mostly behind us, again it makes sense that as the music progresses so will lyrical content.

with metaphysical and religious issues?

As others have said, that's happening now.

we'll see more older people making excellent prog?

So long as we also see more young people making good prog thing should improve (CD sales and gig attendance).


prog will be used more for educational purposes?

Quite possibly, especially when dealing with the effect and inspiration for modern music.

for therapeutical purposes?

I guess if I were in a coma but could hear things going on around me i'd rather hear prog than say hip-hop. But I can't help thinking that i'd want to be out of the coma quicker if all I heard was hip-hop so I could put some prog on!

Arena will win the European Schlagerfestival one fine day?

Not before the next Klingon concept album!

[Peter]

This forum has become a bit sleepy in my mind, so let me shatter you a bit.

wordplay, kewl

I'd like to hear your guesses on the future of prog. Do you think that:

more and more people will listen to prog?
Em, no. The "prog movement" seems to have a rising number of fans for a few reasons:

• Communities pop up everywhere and so do "prog communities"
• As of late, bands that make what I would simply call "Rock" or "Hard Rock" project themselves into the "prog" scene, or are put there by their fans, because it's somewhat elite, at least moreelite than - being a "normal" rock band. For me those are basically bands that don't really come up with new schemes, stick to verse-chorus-verse-chorus, f.e.

there will be a growing difference in the quality of prog?
Err, probably.

there will be a growing difference between American, British, Scandinavian, German, (and I better include Dutch) prog?
can't comment on that.

we'll have excellent prog sung in German, French, Swedish, Hebrew, and other languages?
Not on this one either. Imagining Sylvan singing German... well, Marco might even come up with something beautiful in this case

prog groups will deal increasingly with environmental and animal rights issues?
Errr, gotta ask the artists, don't really know. Personally I like storylines, packed in mysterious lyrics.

with metaphysical and religious issues?
Er, probably, yes.

we'll see more older people making excellent prog?
I don't care, as long as the result is good

prog will be used more for educational purposes?
Hmmm...

for therapeutical purposes?
 

Arena will win the European Schlagerfestival one fine day?
*gnark*

[maddox]

Hey, Maddox, how about commenting on some of these questions? Would be interesting to have your take, as you're more heavy than the other two guys.

Yeah yeah, relax a bit. 

OK, i'll try.

more and more people will listen to prog?
As a fan i hope so but i don't think that will ever happen. Unless the quality of prog won't change it would be okay but the more well known bands become the more they cut away from the 'real' prog they used to make.
I agree with Appelmoes?? that prog has a steady fan base.

there will be a growing difference in the quality of prog?

I'm sure that 'has' is a more appropriate word instead of 'will' but overall i think that the quality of prog is pretty high. But there is a wide range of bands who are not in the high leagues of prog-bands therefore are not very known.


there will be a growing difference between American, British, Scandinavian, German, (and I better include Dutch) prog?

Depends on your personal opinion. Indeed every band has it's own identity but the country of origin surely adds something to it. Prog from Germany isn't the same as prog from USA. Other influences, other believes, other way of lives. So there is a difference but by definition not a bad one.
A growing difference depends on the quality that is released.

we'll have excellent prog sung in German, French, Swedish, Hebrew, and other languages?

Probably or better yet surely yes but i'm not interested it that. No offence of course but each to his own and my music is sung in English.

prog groups will deal increasingly with environmental and animal rights issues?

Not sure if it will increase which is a good thing if it does since the world is in a poor state but i know that  there are bands that do that.

with metaphysical and religious issues?

It's no secret that there are some. Neal Morse is a perfect example but bands like Cryptic Vision and Glass Hammer have religious believes too and sing about that.

we'll see more older people making excellent prog?

The danger of being 'experienced' in writing music is that, and marillion sung about that on King, the 'fire in your bellyThat gave you the songs Is suddenly gone'.
So in other words, older is not always better. What do you write when you have written a thousand lyrics?

prog will be used more for educational purposes?

Not overnight but i think yes it will. One of the reasons why is that more and more people are aware that we have one world and one world alone and we should cherish it.

for therapeutical purposes?

Well it certainly does for me. 
I always believed that music can be used as a tool to get 'into' people so definitely yes for me. You see it by coma patients. People talk to them and even play music to them.

Arena will win the European Schlagerfestival one fine day?

Only if Peter will have a guest appearance in it. 

[/corny-mode-off]

[Nicky007]

wordplay, kewl

And, Peter, have you also thought about the shatter-chatter association, The Shattered Room - Chatter Room ?

"Shatter" also has some more interesting connotations, like in, " He wanted to shatter her illusions" (from Dictionary.com). Isn't that what a proggie wants to do: Be on the move all the time ?

Good choice for a name. Thanks, Clive (and thanks for a hell of a lot of other stuff too).

Nicky.

[maddox]

Hey, Maddox, how about commenting on some of these questions? Would be interesting to have your take, as you're more heavy than the other two guys.

I might be poking fun at you marsh monsters, but then again, you're the only active people in these parts of the Room, apart from this crazy Brane (British Dane), or Drit, or whatever.

Nicky.

You do realise that it's your turn now, don't you? 

[PH]

Yes Nicky! Please tell us your view on those questions!
You made me curious!

[Nicky007]

As moderator of this topic, I'd rather draw up you guys' comments and discuss them a bit further. I was particularly intrigued by your comments on the question:

Do you think that more and more people will listen to prog?

Appelmoes??:  Not likely, I think prog has a very steady but faithful fanbase.

PH: To be honest, yes I think so. People who like it will have children who might like it, just need to be woken up (happened with me).
And of course we keep spreading the word. I don't think the total number will decrease, only increase, not very fast, but that's not a problem.

Johninblack:  That very much depends on the number of new bands formed by younger people. while the majority of prog bands and prog listeners are around 40-50 you really can't expect too many younger people identifing with Prog, Fortunately there are new younger band emerging, at the moment perhaps not enough to increase the number of people listening but maybe just enough to maintain it at its present level.

Peter:  Em, no. The "prog movement" seems to have a rising number of fans for a few reasons:
Communities pop up everywhere and so do "prog communities"
As of late, bands that make what I would simply call "Rock" or "Hard Rock" project themselves into the "prog" scene, or are put there by their fans, because it's somewhat elite, at least moreelite than - being a "normal" rock band. For me those are basically bands that don't really come up with new schemes, stick to verse-chorus-verse-chorus, f.e.

Maddox:  As a fan i hope so but i don't think that will ever happen. Unless the quality of prog won't change it would be okay but the more well known bands become the more they cut away from the 'real' prog they used to make. I agree with Appelmoes?? that prog has a steady fan base.


I notice here a fear that prog is being thinned out (Peter) and that there is a risk of it (Maddox).

Everybody here appears to believe that the prog fan base will not diminish. PH and I believe that it will grow slowly.

The reason why I believe that it will grow is that there have been so many excellent prog groups around lately who have made a lot of mindblowing music. This stuff is simply so much better, both musically and lyrically, than most of the other contemporary music around, and the enthusiasm of prog fans is naturally contagious (one for you here, Peter).

The reason why I believe that it will be a slow growth is that love of prog is very much an acquired taste. WE all know that. So, if you have a close friend, you slowly start playing the very melodious quieter stuff for him/her, slowly graduating to the more complex stuff. Kids in families pick up these things naturally over time (like with PH).

I believe that prog will be around for a long time, simply because the intelligent musicians are naturally attracted to it. Somehow they DO find the means to record their great music, and fortunately the technicalities are usually affordable. Take e.g. Pallas: Each recording has been a struggle against all odds. But the end result is a tremendous catalog of music that over time will give joy to thousands of people.

But it's up to us fans to discover the stuff and promote it. So don't fall asleep (another one).

Nicky.

[PH]

Amen, brother in prog!

Just spread the word, and slowly convert people.

Start with the more mainstream bands.
Kino for instance:

Kino is on one side very mainstream. It's very attractive music. Most people will like it right away. Then, after a couple of times they get used to the guitarsolos and think "the guitarsolos are actually very good!". Then they want to listen to more music with that kind of guitarsolos. etc, etc.

Ofcourse this is a very shortened version of the truth. Some won't get into it anyway because they simply don't want to...

[Nicky007]

You raised a very interesting question there, PH.

Who are the people who "simply don't want to" deal with prog?

Please, anybody.

Nicky.

[maddox]

You raised a very interesting question there, PH.

Who are the people who "simply don't want to" deal with prog?

Please, anybody.

Nicky.

Just watch MTV or Top Of The Pops and you know the answer. 
The media and the record companies pump all the bands/singers/etc that sells and have the looks to sell into the kids/peoples throats. Stated a bit harsh i know but that's one of the reasons, if not, the paramount reason why people neglect prog or whatever that doesn't sell. The masses buy whatever they hear on the radio and the radio only play the stuff that is 'hot'.
Sure, there is a matter of taste too but you can't like what you simply don't know that it exist.
I place my bet on the people who are open minded for other things as well, and i know that there are people who does.

We just have to 'educate' them. 

Edit: This is one of the reasons why i'm sceptic that more and more people will listen to prog. We can't do it on our own, so to say. We need the media too.
Otherwise it will take a very long time before that will happen.

Just an opinion.

[Appelmoes??]

I agree with you Maddox, and I want to add that for the majority of people Prog, is just to difficult to understand. The music is complicated and the lyrics need time to sink in. I think that for most people that's a downer because they just want some background music instead of listening to music just for the music itself.

[johninblack]

I also agree, I think for a lot of people anything with a pedictable beat, 'nice' melody and simple lyrics that requires zero thought is as much as they are interested in. Generally speaking if you take a look at your average prog audiance you will find a significant number of those people fall into one or all of the following, i) People of above average intelligence, ii) Musicians iii) People that generally like to follow thier own path in life (as opposed to the sheep that only like what the media tells them is 'hip')

[PH]

Just watch MTV or Top Of The Pops and you know the answer. 
The media and the record companies pump all the bands/singers/etc that sells and have the looks to sell into the kids/peoples throats. Stated a bit harsh i know but that's one of the reasons, if not, the paramount reason why people neglect prog or whatever that doesn't sell. The masses buy whatever they hear on the radio and the radio only play the stuff that is 'hot'.

Yup, but that doesn't mean that the "masses" (they're people too) might like prog. I know someone who only listened to pop-music, radio-friendly pop-music. He was a part of the "masses", but when I played him a Kino song he said "Wow, that's so different and better than what I used to listen to!!". I also know someone who listens to pop-music and I said to him "here, you should listen to this!" (Kino) "No, I'm already listening to this, that music of yours is crap!" So he already knew he didn't want to listen it, even when he didn't listen it. "Wat de boer niet kent dat eet hij niet" (The farmer doesn't eat what he doesn't know).
 

Sure, there is a matter of taste too but you can't like what you simply don't know that it exist.
I place my bet on the people who are open minded for other things as well, and i know that there are people who does.

We just have to 'educate' them. 

Edit: This is one of the reasons why i'm sceptic that more and more people will listen to prog. We can't do it on our own, so to say. We need the media too.
Otherwise it will take a very long time before that will happen.

Just an opinion.

It won't happen fast indeed. But I think there will be slowly a grow in interest in prog music. We just need to "wake" them.

I agree with you Maddox, and I want to add that for the majority of people Prog, is just to difficult to understand. The music is complicated and the lyrics need time to sink in.

You know, that's true. But therefore we need more of those cross-over bands. Bands like Kino, Frost (I think) and other radio-friendly prog.

I think that for most people that's a downer because they just want some background music instead of listening to music just for the music itself.

That clicks with the idea of people downloading music (SOME people who download music, I download music, but I do it with care, I think I made myself clear many times). I remember reading an interview with Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree (in the new iO pages). He said that when he was young he used to spend his well-earned money on an LP (once in a month or so) and just WANTED to appreciate it. Just because he spend so much money on it. It took maybe 10 spinnings before he enjoyed it, but then he REALLY enjoyed it. Nowadays you download the whole Beatles catalog, listen to some songs of it. Don't like it and throw it away as fast as it came. People don't enjoy music anymore. I fully agree with him!

[PH]

I also agree, I think for a lot of people anything with a pedictable beat, 'nice' melody and simple lyrics that requires zero thought is as much as they are interested in. Generally speaking if you take a look at your average prog audiance you will find a significant number of those people fall into one or all of the following, i) People of above average intelligence, ii) Musicians iii) People that generally like to follow thier own path in life (as opposed to the sheep that only like what the media tells them is 'hip')

You make me laugh!

I also agree, I think for a lot of people anything with a pedictable beat, 'nice' melody and simple lyrics that requires zero thought is as much as they are interested in.

Yes, that's what we already knew... But WHY is it that way?? It shouldn't be that way... I think it's just because they don't know better.

I would go as far as to say that I'd rather have that people listen to Speed Black Heavy Death Metal, or country, or jazz, or classical than that they listen to everything that's on the radio.
It's not that I want people to like prog, it's more that I want people to dislike the radio-music. Go your own way, if it's Country, so be it. Is Jazz your thing? Go for it! Even if it's pop-music, please listen it! But don't do it BECAUSE OTHERS DO IT!! I so hate that.

If they like prog, that's a plus!

Generally speaking if you take a look at your average prog audiance you will find a significant number of those people fall into one or all of the following, i) People of above average intelligence, ii) Musicians iii) People that generally like to follow thier own path in life (as opposed to the sheep that only like what the media tells them is 'hip')

Hmm... Really?

i) People of above average intelligence

What about Jazz, classical music? Most people who listen to that kind of stuff are often very intelligent people. (The dumb people always say: "do u listn to classicle musik? LOL u r soodumb!!!!!1!!!!!1!!!one!!!!"  ) By the way Johninblack, there are many faults in your typed text!

ii) Musicians

Yup, again this is also true with Jazz and Classical.

iii) People that generally like to follow thier own path in life (as opposed to the sheep that only like what the media tells them is 'hip')

Probably. I'm not really that sure about that. Don't really know. But it could be true.


Man, how intelligent we are! Brilliant!

[Nicky007]

I know someone who only listened to pop-music, radio-friendly pop-music. He was a part of the "masses", but when I played him a Kino song he said "Wow, that's so different and better than what I used to listen to!!". I also know someone who listens to pop-music and I said to him "here, you should listen to this!" (Kino) "No, I'm already listening to this, that music of yours is crap!" So he already knew he didn't want to listen it, even when he didn't listen it. "Wat de boer niet kent dat eet hij niet" (The farmer doesn't eat what he doesn't know).

I think you really hit the nail on the head here, PH. I'm sure all of us in the Room can share these experiences, sometimes refreshing, other times painful.

I'm the sort of person who really goes into something that I find intriguing. That's been a lot of different things in the course of time: rock music (of course), theosophy, vegetarianism, Kubrick, Wagner, Hitler, serial murderers, just to mention some of the biggest interests at various times in my life. (Don't get worried: I'm not at all violent, Nazi, or racist; I'm one of the most peaceful and loving persons on earth; these have been solely intellectual interests.)

Of course I get on other people's nerves. Who can stand a person who gets real passionate about such things?

As the stewed apples note(s): > I think that for most people that's a downer, because they just want some background music instead of listening to music just for the music itself.

My guess is that most people feel that they have their hands full with their families, jobs, homes, diseases, and holiday outings. There's just NO room left in their minds for more demands, like "unmelodious" music, "absurd" movies, "past" history, "unknowable" ideas, you get the picture.

Well, that seems to explain why we enjoy each other's company here in the Room. That also explains why I talk so/too much here.

Nicky.

[PH]

I like you man!

Your my favourite member of the week!

[Nicky007]

As long as I'm not your favorite nude model of the week

Nicky.

[Appelmoes??]

You're too late for that, the photo's for the 2008 calender have already been handed over to the Admin

[Nicky007]

What about Jazz, classical music? Most people who listen to that kind of stuff are often very intelligent people. (The dumb people always say: "do u listn to classicle musik? LOL u r soodumb!!!!!1!!!!!1!!!one!!!!" 

There seems to be some !-lib going on here

One can't generalise about people listening to classical music and jazz. I'm not so knowledgeable about jazz, but I've listened to a lot of classical, and played classical myself at a quite high level. Mozart is pop music. Everybody who doesn't know much about classical makes a big deal about loving Mozart. Now, once you get over that phase (I did when I was in my teens), you get to Beethoven, who is an entirely different bowl of fish (or stewed apples), more like prog today. See, this guy really struggled with his expression, and wrote amazing stuff, like his Symphonies 5-9. And if we work our way even deeper into classical, we get to people like Schoenberg, for whom every note made a difference, like Arena today, hooray!

I would venture to say that people who listen to Madonna and James Blunt aren't going to prog concerts or Shakespeare plays. (The only reason I dare say this here is that I'm sure no M or JB-fan will ever make it to this forum.)

Nicky.