God and religion

[Nicky007]

I do not feel that i am missing out whatsover.

Except that God is missing you guys 

I see faith and logic/science as two completely different domains. We can never rationalise our way to faith. It is a jump into the unknown, as Kierkegaard put it.

The thing is that we need God, as a personal being above the sum of human intelligences. Without such a Being, life would be meaningless, in an eternal sense, and that becomes unacceptable, once one pursues the thought. When one then takes the jump, faith starts growing.

That would be my understanding of faith - the short version, of course 

Nicky.

[PH]

I wholeheartily agree with Nicky here.

A very pointed remark of Nicky is indeed: God is missing you.

Another thing. And now I'm going to be bitchy, but alright. I hope you'll forgive me.

This is far too deep for me but i accept we all have our own beliefs.

This could in a way be called religious indifference. "We all have our own beliefs, in the end all that matters is that you choose something that you seem fit for yourself."

This seems fair, and when you say it, it looks as if you're open to religion, but in fact it means you define the rules yourself and you're actually closing yourself off for it.

I did get something out of it but it didnt last.

Why do we always want to get something out of it? As long as you want something out of it, it won't last, even when you do get something out of it. Look at it as marriage. When you are married, you want to give yourself up for your husband/wife, you want to know each other, you love each other unconditionally. When you start investing in this 'marriage' (by delving deeper into it, 'getting to know Him' by reading the Bible for example), then you'll get something out of it, although it won't be your goal to get something out of it.

What is that 'something' anyway?

[Draco chimera]

Except that God is missing you guys 

The thing is that we need God, as a personal being above the sum of human intelligences. Without such a Being, life would be meaningless, in an eternal sense, and that becomes unacceptable, once one pursues the thought. When one then takes the jump, faith starts growing.

That would be my understanding of faith - the short version, of course 

Nicky.

Many people live without believing, and do not feel any kind of "emptiness". I had a conversation with some friends about it lately, and one of them told me : "I do not know if I believe in God, or have religious beliefs. The fact is, we're here, we don't fully understand why, nor do we know for how long; there are many things to do, to see here, it is like a trip. So, let's just make it as pleasant as possible for us and the others." It does not mean this person doesn't ask themselves metaphysical questions, it just means they can live without religion. I guess it depends on the person - I understand many people need to believe to keep on going ahead.

[PH]

Many people live without believing, and do not feel any kind of "emptiness".

Sometimes there's no feeling of emptiness because all 'life-space' is filled with all kinds of things. When you take that away, you will feel the emptiness. I know, this seems obvious (and it is, obviously ).

Let me try to explain. People in general don't like to be alone. We can endure being alone for a couple of minutes, or a few hours, perhaps even a day, but after that we really feel the need to be with friends, family, or pets even. When you have all time filled with all kinds of things (music, television, work, hobby's) you are much more likely to endure being alone for days, or even weeks.

Some religious people are 'into' fasting. Which is for the same reason. When we are not tied to all kinds of things (food as the obvious example, but also music, or movies, or even society (hermits)) we are more likely to open up for spirituality.

I had a conversation with some friends about it lately, and one of them told me : "I do not know if I believe in God, or have religious beliefs. The fact is, we're here, we don't fully understand why, nor do we know for how long; there are many things to do, to see here, it is like a trip. So, let's just make it as pleasant as possible for us and the others."

Carpe Diem. Seize the day. Which in itself is not bad. When I quote the Bible:

"Yes, if a man lives many years, let him rejoice in them all." Ecclesiastes 11:8a

In other words: make the most of it. Enjoy it. Carpe Diem.

But right after that:

"But let him remember the days of darkness, for they shall be many.
All that comes is vanity." Ecclesiastes 11:8b

The darkness comes. In the end, we will all die. Don't forget. Memento Mori.

It does not mean this person doesn't ask themselves metaphysical questions, it just means they can live without religion. I guess it depends on the person - I understand many people need to believe to keep on going ahead.

Yes, I can understand this vision. But this means that christians or muslims or jews are actually weak. They can't keep on, they need belief to keep going. Atheist are strong, they don't need a god or belief.

I'm almost sure you won't agree, but I think we are ALL weak and need belief, or actually God, to make it till the end (or beyond the end: eternity). The Atheists, the Christians, the Muslims and the Jews. We are all weak. But only the Christians, Muslims and Jews know they are weak. An Atheist doesn't like to be weak.

[Draco chimera]

Sometimes there's no feeling of emptiness because all 'life-space' is filled with all kinds of things. When you take that away, you will feel the emptiness. I know, this seems obvious (and it is, obviously ).

Let me try to explain. People in general don't like to be alone. We can endure being alone for a couple of minutes, or a few hours, perhaps even a day, but after that we really feel the need to be with friends, family, or pets even. When you have all time filled with all kinds of things (music, television, work, hobby's) you are much more likely to endure being alone for days, or even weeks.

Some religious people are 'into' fasting. Which is for the same reason. When we are not tied to all kinds of things (food as the obvious example, but also music, or movies, or even society (hermits)) we are more likely to open up for spirituality.

Carpe Diem. Seize the day. Which in itself is not bad. When I quote the Bible:

"Yes, if a man lives many years, let him rejoice in them all." Ecclesiastes 11:8a

In other words: make the most of it. Enjoy it. Carpe Diem.

But right after that:

"But let him remember the days of darkness, for they shall be many.
All that comes is vanity." Ecclesiastes 11:8b

The darkness comes. In the end, we will all die. Don't forget. Memento Mori.

Yes, I can understand this vision. But this means that christians or muslims or jews are actually weak. They can't keep on, they need belief to keep going. Atheist are strong, they don't need a god or belief.

I'm almost sure you won't agree, but I think we are ALL weak and need belief, or actually God, to make it till the end (or beyond the end: eternity). The Atheists, the Christians, the Muslims and the Jews. We are all weak. But only the Christians, Muslims and Jews know they are weak. An Atheist doesn't like to be weak.

You are right when you say you are all weak, but I guess no one likes to be weak. Atheists are just like Jews, Christians, or any kind of believers; the compensate their weaknesses. The only difference is, they do not compensate with religious beliefs.

Yes, we all die in the end, but I'm having difficulties seeing your point here... silly me.

[Peter]

One of the preachers in the church I grew up with once told us this allegory, which I'm trying to tell you as good as I can:

One day Darwin entered Newton's office. Newton was somewhere in the back, busy writing up numbers and studying books. Darwin noticed a model of the solar system standing near the door, a mechanical wooden and metallic building, with a lot of wheels and gears and springs. The device was clicking and buzzing as it was spinning around, and Darwin was as puzzled as fascinated by it, as he had never before seen anything the like.

He stood before it and called out to Newton "Isaac, tell me who made this thing, I want one for myself". Newton, still very busy, mumbled a "Errr, nobody, now leave me alone" into his beard. Darwin watched in amazement for another minute until he regained himself and asked again "Please, now tell me who made it". Newton, in the midst of a very complicated series of calculations, answered, now a little angry "Away with you, nobody made it". Darwin overheard the anger in Newton's voice and inquired again: "Stop making fun of me, something as wonderful and complicated as this can't be made by <nobody>, someone must have worked it out and put it together, please tell me now!"

Newton, startled, turned around, looked at Darwin and replied "So you run around telling people that something as complex as the universe, the world, mankind and all nature has come out of nothing but coincidence and has no maker, but you wouldn't believe that the same goes for this rather simple device here ?"

[funkster]

This is an amazing story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9saTgN_sIk&feature=share

[PH]

Nice, Funkster.
Why do you show it to us?

It's indeed an amazing story and it shows how things CAN happen. Not how things SHOULD happen.
I'm saying this, because people might get the idea that people should get a very special feeling or experience when they become a christian.
God has many ways, and not everyone is the same. I always give the example of the apostle Paul and Timothy.

Paul, who was formerly known as Saul, was a persecutor of christians. On his way to Damascus he was overwhelmed by this amazing light and a voice spoke to him: "Saul, Saul! Why do you persecute me?". From then on he became a christian. This was a sudden conversion.

For Timothy, things were different. Timothy's mother probably already was a christian. She taught him everything about God, so Timothy's conversion (if you can even call it that) was gradually. Nothing really exciting about it.

[funkster]

I posted it Paxi because i started this thread and have struggled with faith a huge amount over the last
2 years. I saw the video on Facebook from a Christian friend of mind and thought it was just , i don't
know - amazing really how this person's life had been changed so dramatically.

Those changes have never happened in my life and maybe i was expecting that when as you say it does
not happen to everyone the same.

Lots for my to mull over i tell you