Ever thought about forming a political party? (not for dictators)

[PH]

And what would you want to change? What would be your policy?


HipHop, Rap and Trance (and the likes) and some forms of metal are having so much influence on people (especially youth) these days, that I'd like to censor music like that.
I want to ban it off the radio (and tv).

Or at least it should be altered a LOT.

Rap and HipHop (and such) often have videoclips which give negative pulses and stimulate bad behaviour. This should be forbidden.

I'm not saying that this kind of music should be forbidden, but I'd like to censor a lot of it.



Discuss!

-Paco

[johninblack]

HipHop, Rap and Trance can't be censored. Morons have to have something they can call their own and to censor it would remove all the content they understand.......

[bluepony]

HipHop and Rap has a content?!     

[PH]

HipHop, Rap and Trance can't be censored. Morons have to have something they can call their own and to censor it would remove all the content they understand.......

They can have their music, but not in public.
A bit like us in fact.

Rap and HipHop is very non-social music with things like "fuck", "bitch" and everything in-between...
It's a shame that such music is airing on radio and tv (with the video clips added to it).
This kind of music is undermining society.

[PH]

I should add that they can have their music, like we do.
Prog is underground music, while it's not undermining society at all, in fact, the world would be so much better if Prog was played on radio and tv.

Rap and HipHop should be underground music, but somehow it came to the public and now society is going under. Youth is identificating with Rappers and the whole gang culture is going on...

Sure, Pop music is mindless, but it's got not that fatal influence on people that HipHop and Rap has.

[Nicky007]

Paco, what do you mean with "dicators":

Di-Cators (people who interpret the Latin historian Cato on two levels)?
Deca-tors (people like me who love Ten (deca in Latin))?
Dick-eaters (... oh, better not)?

Nicky.

(in case you hadn't guessed  )

[PH]

Sigh...

I edited the title.
Do you have something to say about the content of this topic?

[Nicky007]

HipHop, Rap and Trance can't be censored. Morons have to have something they can call their own and to censor it would remove all the content they understand.......

Fabulous, John    (but don't tell Ms 007 that I laughed, because she has two sons who are into hiphop)

Nicky (still laughing, and still feeling wrong bout it).

[Nicky007]

Do you have something to say about the content of this topic?

Something funny or something serious, Paco?

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

OK, I'll opt for the serious side of life (this time):

Basically I think it's important that we concentrate on driving back the really dangerous elements in the world:

1. The Islamicists, with their completely sick ideas of suicide bombings, degrading views of women (72 virgins in Heaven  ), and outrageous plans for worldwide Umma or Caliphate or whatever. I'm willing to respect a Muslim who's just a discreet about his/her faith as I am, but not s*heads who suicide-bomb WTC and the likes.

2. Nazis, fascists, racists, anyone who principally divides mankind into super- and sub-. All 6 billion humans on earth are equally Children of God, and we all have a right to full expression of ourselves. Don't deceive yourselves: These Nazi-elements are real dangerous, and should be fought on all levels.

Let the kiddies have their f*, s*, n*, b* (last one for you, Bluey); they'll grow up and become mature - and learn to appreciate prog (but don't tell Ms 007 that I said the last thing).

So, a bit   a bit   and a bit

Nicky.

[PH]

OK, I'll opt for the serious side of life (this time):

Thanks for caring, Nicky.

Basically I think it's important that we concentrate on driving back the really dangerous elements in the world:

Sure, but it has to start somewhere.

1. The Islamicists, with their completely sick ideas of suicide bombings, degrading views of women (72 virgins in Heaven  ), and outrageous plans for worldwide Umma or Caliphate or whatever. I'm willing to respect a Muslim who's just a discreet about his/her faith as I am, but not s*heads who suicide-bomb WTC and the likes.

But where is the limit? Cultures differ so much, you can set rules, but you still have to respect their believes. If they believe a man will have 72 virgins in the afterlife if he lives good in his present life, than you can't say "you sexist" or something. Rules are important in society, but the freedom of speech/thinking/religion is also very important. I think most christians are in fact some sort of humanists and often way too tolerant.
What is wisdom...

2. Nazis, fascists, racists, anyone who principally divides mankind into super- and sub. All 6 billion humans on earth are equally Children of God, and we all have a right to full expression of ourselves. Don't deceive yourselves: These Nazi-elements are real dangerous, and should be fought on all levels.

Of course, but is fascism still that present? Racism is totally wrong, absolutely!

Let the kiddies have their f*, s*, n*, b* (last one for you, Bluey); they'll grow up and become mature.

That's got nothing to do with maturity, Nicky. That's exactly what I wanted to make clear in my post. I always grew up with my parents telling me that I shouldn't say things like that. Some people nowadays don't seem to educate their children. And maybe saying "fuck" isn't really that much of a problem either (although it's coming from somewhere of course).

It's more that I don't like it that some thoughts are expressed through music.
"Baby, shake that ass" could be a lyric in HipHop or Rap music that a lot of young people are comfortable with. They think it's normal.
Also (talking about videoclips) youngsters get the idea that when you have a girlfriend, she likes it to do dirty things (to keep it very broad). Have you ever seen video clips like that Nicky?
I know that sex sells, but isn't it totally wrong that youngsters like a song not because of the music, but more because of the atmosphere, the theme and the image that goes with it? Why are boys and girls more sexually active in their teens than 40 years ago?
Music is fun, but it can be dangerous when you use it in a wrong way.
I'm very serious about this.


-Paco

[Nicky007]

Thanks for caring, Nicky.

>Sure, but it has to start somewhere.

We should be awake to everything that's unloving.


> But where is the limit? Cultures differ so much, you can set rules, but you still have to respect their beliefs.

I appreciate very much the great variation among humans. In fact, I wish there were more. We can learn a lot from the creativity in prog musicians.

I'll respect and back up any Muslim, atheist, hiphopper, Britneyhopper, homo-, trans-, or whatever -ist or -sexual, as long as they respect my right to have my personal faith, music taste, sexuality etc.


> If they believe a man will have 72 virgins in the afterlife if he lives good in his present life, than you can't say "you sexist" or something.

I do say "you sexist" - and I'm sure that Bluey would say "you f*in sexist" -  because this view implies a degradation of women, but I wouldn't beat him up or kill him for it.


>Rules are important in society, but the freedom of speech/thinking/religion is also very important. I think most christians are in fact some sort of humanists and often way too tolerant.

Your last point is very important, Paco. Maybe one could say that we should be tolerant of fellow "tolerants", and drive back "intolerants".


> What is wisdom ....

Oh, how philosophical, Paco.


> Of course, but is fascism still that present?

I recently saw a very enlightening British documentary on present-day Nazis and White Power. It made me shudder! Most of these ugly people keep the swastika, Hitler-portraits, and heavy boots at home, and use sweet-talking and music to promulgate their ugly views. And their influence is growing! When the spotlights are off them, they beat up blacks, Jews, Muslims and homosexuals.

The Germans f* up in 1914 and '33, but they sure have learnt their lesson, and nowadays they're very much awake to these inhuman elements.

Of course, democratic rights should and do allow people to argue for limitations in immigration, family togetherness etc., and even do this in parliaments; these people we should take seriously and try to moderate their positions.


> Racism is totally wrong, absolutely!

For sure! Today there is one race, the human race.


>  Some people nowadays don't seem to educate their children.

Right, Paco! You, I, and even Bluey, got a loving and decent upbringing. But parents not taking their job as parent seriously is one of the big problems in society. And that's why teachers have such a hard time. They're left with the deficiencies of parents, and that's often quite a handful.


> It's more that I don't like it that some thoughts are expressed through music.

But you have to realise that this is one of the ways that love-deficient kids compensate, and it's a far less damaging way than beating up people and breaking into their homes.


>"Baby, shake that ass" could be a lyric in HipHop or Rap music that a lot of young people are comfortable with. They think it's normal. Also (talking about videoclips) youngsters get the idea that when you have a girlfriend, she likes it to do dirty things (to keep it very broad). Have you ever seen video clips like that Nicky?

I like your "broad", Paco. It's up to Bluey and Co. to do something about the degrading views of women expressed in a lot of rap, and I think that they're up to it nowadays, and we men can help them. It's clear that anyone who looks down upon anyone else has a serious deficiency, and we should grab all opportunities to deal with such things on a personal level.


> I know that sex sells ...

Sex is fun too ....


> ... but isn't it totally wrong that youngsters like a song not because of the music, but more because of the atmosphere, the theme and the image that goes with it? Why are boys and girls more sexually active in their teens than 40 years ago?

I don't think that sexual activity has changed that much, Paco. In my youth, people were f*in around a lot too (both literally and symbolically). (Not me though - I was dreaming about my fair-skinned princess with the golden hair - or maybe I was just left out ) It lies in the blood of youths to experiment in all ways. We just have to hope - and warn them - that they do it somewhat responsibly - and don't pick up some AIDS or the like. How can you teach "true love" to a kid who's bursting with libido?


> Music is fun, but it can be dangerous when you use it in a wrong way.

Right! I'm mainly afraid of "white power" and Islamicist music.


> And maybe saying "fuck" isn't really that much of a problem either ...

Hope not! Just noticed that I'd used it a lot here .... 


> I'm very serious about this.

I'm too.

Nicky.

[PH]

Nicky I really love you, man. (I'm hetero by the way.)
You're bloody funny and I really have choked on my bread with cheese many times while reading your posts.
What I REALLY like about persons like you, is that you show that life isn't only fun fun fun, but there's also the serious side of life and you really take the time to give your thoughts and opinions on matters like this.
Lovely!

Now on to your long reply:

I appreciate very much the great variation among humans. In fact, I wish there were more. We can learn a lot from the creativity in prog musicians.

Hahaha, brilliant how you bring everything back to our favourite music genre. Indeed, culture =

I'll respect and back up any Muslim, atheist, hiphopper, Britneyhopper, homo-, trans-, or whatever -ist or -sexual, as long as they respect my right to have my personal faith, music taste, sexuality etc.

Again: hahahaha!
What do you think of gay parades then? I don't mind someone being gay (as in homosexual), but I hate it when they come in through our streets with their caravan of pink trucks on which they perform sexual gestures. (Every now and then this happens in The Netherlands and the media is telling it in full colour on tv and everybody is talking about how tolerant we are yippee...)

I do say "you sexist" - and I'm sure that Bluey would say "you f*in sexist" -  because this view implies a degradation of women, but I wouldn't beat him up or kill him for it.

But as soon as you say that the muslim is offended because this is part of his/her believe...

Your last point is very important, Paco. Maybe one could say that we should be tolerant of fellow "tolerants", and drive back "intolerants".

Yeah of course. But perhaps my example of gay parades makes it even more clear...

Oh, how philosophical, Paco.

Oh, thank you Nicky.

I recently saw a very enlightening British documentary on present-day Nazis and White Power. It made me shudder! Most of these ugly people keep the swastika, Hitler-portraits, and heavy boots at home, and use sweet-talking and music to promulgate their ugly views. And their influence is growing! When the spotlights are off them, they beat up blacks, Jews, Muslims and homosexuals.

This happens underground. This kind of people is not tolerated. A political party with these opinions don't have a chance.
Things you can't see in society aren't that much of an influence on people. Things that you CAN see (like HipHop or Rap videoclips) have much more influence...

The Germans f* up in 1914 and '33, but they sure have learnt their lesson, and nowadays they're very much awake to these inhuman elements.

Yeah, I tell you what. In fact, when you say "Hail Hitler" in Germany nowadays, you are imprisoned and have to pay a fine.
If you do the same thing over here in Holland they'll say "Please don't do that sir, please?".

Right, Paco! You, I, and even Bluey, got a loving and decent upbringing. But parents not taking their job as parent seriously is one of the big problems in society. And that's why teachers have such a hard time. They're left with the deficiencies of parents, and that's often quite a handful.

Even Bluey! Yes... Why are many parents so soft? This is something I'd like to find out.

But you have to realise that this is one of the ways that love-deficient kids compensate, and it's a far less damaging way than beating up people and breaking into their homes.

I'm not so sure about that Nicky.
Your and my future depends on the same people that are now sniffing drugs, drinking themselves to death and thinking every girl is willing to do everything. Don't underestimate the power of the media! Young people are so amendable, you wouldn't believe it! To become real human, you have to control your instincts. In HipHop these images of power, bling-bling, sex and violence is so rich, when your brought up with it, you think this is the real life.

I like your "broad", Paco. It's up to Bluey and Co. to do something about the degrading views of women expressed in a lot of rap, and I think that they're up to it nowadays, and we men can help them. It's clear that anyone who looks down upon anyone else has a serious deficiency, and we should grab all opportunities to deal with such things on a personal level.

As soon as HipHop artists sing about other subjects and make normal video clips, everything will be ok.

Sex is fun too....

I take your word for it!

I don't think that sexual activity has changed that much, Paco. In my youth, people were f*in around a lot too (both literally and symbolically).

But it wasn't without consequences! There was a time that sex was a taboo which is obviously wrong too. But 40 years ago sex wasn't on the street, it wasn't promoted as it is nowadays. Classmates in school are telling me all the details of their experiences (how they do it, with whom, how many times... etc etc) in class while everybody can hear it. The teachers aren't doing anything, this is "normal". Noone is ashamed.

It lies in the blood of youths to experiment in all ways. We just have to hope - and warn them - that they do it somewhat responsibly - and don't pick up some AIDS or the like. How can you teach "true love" to a kid who's bursting with libido?

Yes, but probably the greatest factor in these problems is the media. I miss this warning you're talking about. The only warning they give is "You want sex? Use a condom." What a warning... They forget a lot of aspects.

How can you teach "true love" to a kid who's bursting with libido?

I know. But that doesn't mean that we should accelerate the process with impressions through music (HipHop culture) and tv (many adverts).

Right! I'm mainly afraid of "white power" and Islamicist music.

Again, this music isn't tolerated in society. You won't hear it on radio or tv. This is strictly limited to people who search for it (much like prog).

-Paco

[Nicky007]

Nicky I really love you, man.

Hey, don't let John see this 

Nicky.

[PH]

Hey, don't let John see this 

Nicky.

I know it may take a while, but I'm awaiting your serious reply.

[Nicky007]

I know it may take a while, but I'm awaiting your serious reply.

OK, let's have a go at it:

Nicky I really love you, man. You're bloody funny and I really have choked on my bread with cheese many times while reading your posts.

I'll keep on until you've choked one time too many on your cheese 


> What I REALLY like about persons like you, is that you show that life isn't only fun fun fun, but there's also the serious side of life and you really take the time to give your thoughts and opinions on matters like this.

Actually it's my experience that the really funny people are the ones who have a lot of depth, and therefore are creative, and btw who therefore usually also love prog - again returning to our passion. Superficial people have a need to repeat cliches, and laugh about them ....

I also very much enjoy the discussions we have here in the Room - both the philosophy and the fun. I have to move outside of Denmark to find my buddies - so I'm real happy about the internet, and particularly about the Room (thanks again, Cap). In fact, I don't know or know of anybody in this country who's real passionate about Arena, Pallas and Ten. I know some people in DK who are passionate about Dream Theater, but I don't find that they're fully aware of the scope of this monumental group (am I?).


> Hahaha, brilliant how you bring everything back to our favourite music genre. Indeed, culture =

Yup, can't be said often enough 


>What do you think of gay parades then? I don't mind someone being gay (as in homosexual), but I hate it when they come in through our streets with their caravan of pink trucks on which they perform sexual gestures. (Every now and then this happens in The Netherlands and the media is telling it in full colour on tv and everybody is talking about how tolerant we are yippee...)

Yeah, homosexuality. Complex question, particularly for us Christians. It would interest me greatly to hear some opinions on this matter from several roomies. It seems to me that homosexuals aren't interested in prog; it doesn't appeal to their mental makeup. That's also something we could discuss. In any case, we can probably have a free discussion here in the Room without stepping on anyone's toes.

I have to admit to having a difficult time understanding homosexuality. Let me first just make it entirely clear that I accept it fully, as long as both partners have their full freedom in the relationship. But I don't actually understand it. I'v always found women so terribly sexy - in fact that's been one of the great problems in my life: seeing all those wonderful creatures walk past me, tease me etc. Now I'v "caught" the most wonderful and sexy of them all, so I'm a happy man in that respect    But tellya, sure know what pining is ...

Never felt the least sexual attraction toward men though. It's strange that we humans are sooo entirely divided on that point.

None of the authors of the Bible seem to have had much tolerance toward this phenomenon, seeing it basically is sinful, iac the practice of it, although its been present through all history, more or less repressed.

But times have changed. Now we realise that a homosexual relationship can be loving, respectful and beautiful. So I think we should give gays and lesbians full equality on line with heteros - maybe with one exception: church wedding. The Bible talks so much about the special sacrament of the union of man and woman - hm, a homosexual relationship seems so different .... But let me hear what you guys think about this matter.

I'v never dealt much with gay parades. They simply don't interest me. There's nothing of aesthetic value or intellectual interest to me. Otoh I'm not either bothered by them. It's simply a different world, just like golf, bridge and hiphop. Live and let live.


> But as soon as you say that the muslim is offended because this is part of his/her belief ....

We Christians have had to make many revisions, or at least reinterpretations, in our mind of the Bible, a lot re the OT, and some re NT; so the Muslims can bloody well do that too. It's silly to regard the Quran as God's words verbatim; of course Mohamed put in some of his own apples into the basket (Appy  ). And the idea of 72 virgins in Heaven for the true believer is one of the silliest ideas of all, and not only that: It's an insult to womanhood. I simply don't understand why Muslim women don't revolt more at the primitive male dominance traits in Muslim societies, because they're really revolting to us in the West.


> This happens underground. This kind of people is not tolerated. A political party with these opinions don't have a chance.

Sadly there is quite some racist and sexist violence, Paco, even in our part of the world. The Ku Klux Klan still mistreats blacks and Jews  in the States, in Germany and even Sweden there are several assaults every year. We have to be continually awake to this problem.


> Things that you CAN see (like HipHop or Rap videoclips) have much more influence...

I don't really have much of an opinion on this matter, as I don't watch hiphop videos and don't listen to the stuff. You're young, Paco, so you're much more exposed to it. You tell me what's going on there.


>Yeah, I tell you what. In fact, when you say "Hail Hitler" in Germany nowadays, you are imprisoned and have to pay a fine.

It should be that way all over the world, after all the suffering that the Nazis have caused.


> If you do the same thing over here in Holland they'll say "Please don't do that sir, please?".

Amazing, isn't it? This sort of tolerance is what lets people like Hitler have their way. Remember the story about Chamberlain? If Churchill had become PM ten years earlier, he would have sent Hitler and his gang of thugs to a disciplinary institution, and history would have taken an entirely different course.


So, enough for now. I'm getting a guest in a moment, and I think I've talked enough for today. So guys, your turn now. I'm eager to hear your takes on these matters.

Nicky.

[PH]

It seems to me that homosexuals aren't interested in prog; it doesn't appeal to their mental makeup.

I'd better be very careful with this, Nicky. I think this is called generalizing...

I have to admit to having a difficult time understanding homosexuality. Let me first just make it entirely clear that I accept it fully, as long as both partners have their full freedom in the relationship. But I don't actually understand it. I'v always found women so terribly sexy - in fact that's been one of the great problems in my life: seeing all those wonderful creatures walk past me, tease me etc. Now I'v "caught" the most wonderful and sexy of them all, so I'm a happy man in that respect    But tellya, sure know what pining is ...

You're highlighting a very different aspect of the matter, to be honest. You say you don't understand it that some men like other men rather than women. But that's just the way they are. They can't help it. It's not a matter of "liking" it's a matter of "being".

Let me first just make it entirely clear that I accept it fully, as long as both partners have their full freedom in the relationship.

I won't go on in details, since this is rather off-topic, but I can tell you that as a christian I don't agree with you here.

But times have changed. Now we realise that a homosexual relationship can be loving, respectful and beautiful. So I think we should give gays and lesbians full equality on line with heteros - maybe with one exception: church wedding. The Bible talks so much about the special sacrament of the union of man and woman - hm, a homosexual relationship seems so different .... But let me hear what you guys think about this matter.

Again I can't agree on this. And I don't understand why you make such a clear difference "I think we should give gays and lesbians full equality on line with heteros - maybe with one exception: church wedding." I'm not going to comment further on it, since it would be a whole 'nother discussion. You can open a new topic for it though, if you want to.

I'v never dealt much with gay parades. They simply don't interest me. There's nothing of aesthetic value or intellectual interest to me. Otoh I'm not either bothered by them. It's simply a different world, just like golf, bridge and hiphop. Live and let live.

I think you didn't understand quite well what I said.

You said "I'll respect and back up any Muslim, atheist, hiphopper, Britneyhopper, homo-, trans-, or whatever -ist or -sexual, as long as they respect my right to have my personal faith, music taste, sexuality etc."

So in reply to that I give the example of the gay parade. I respect a homosexual, but don't respect the one who's driving across the streets and provokingly are doing sexual (gay) gestures. In fact the same applies for hetero parades if these would exist (but they don't exist). (But in some way these DO exist in HipHop videoclips where there's often sexual gestures made!)

I know these gay parades don't interest you (they don't interest me either). But I can't believe you are not bothered by them. It is HIGHLY provocative. And I cannot believe that these parades are even tolerated in Holland!

We Christians have had to make many revisions, or at least reinterpretations, in our mind of the Bible, a lot re the OT, and some re NT;

In fact the New Testament itself gives reinterpretations of the Old Testament (or rather guidelines to "read it the way it should be read"). We read the OT THROUGH the NT. But I believe the Bible is always "actual/current". Interpretating single verses is often very dangerous (that's what muslim extremists do with their Quran), that way you can both directions...
The true way is to combine different pieces to see the whole picture, you need the Holy Spirit during this, because from ourselves we are always searching for verses to suite our own directions.

so the Muslims can bloody well do that too. It's silly to regard the Quran as God's words verbatim; of course Mohamed put in some of his own apples into the basket (Appy  ). And the idea of 72 virgins in Heaven for the true believer is one of the silliest ideas of all, and not only that: It's an insult to womanhood. I simply don't understand why Muslim women don't revolt more at the primitive male dominance traits in Muslim societies, because they're really revolting to us in the West.

I'm of course no musilm, nor that much of an expert, but these things probably have to do with the right exegesis. But I'll be honest with you, these are one of the many things why I chose not to be a muslim.

It's silly to regard the Quran as God's words verbatim; of course Mohamed put in some of his own apples into the basket

That's what you say, Nicky, but don't forget that that's exactly what they believe: God wrote the Quran. Waving this off as rediculous is undermining their entire fundament.

As a believer (any believe) you can't add water to the wine. That's just plain stupid.

Sadly there is quite some racist and sexist violence, Paco, even in our part of the world. The Ku Klux Klan still mistreats blacks and Jews  in the States, in Germany and even Sweden there are several assaults every year. We have to be continually awake to this problem.

I know Nicky, but again you didn't get the point.
As a society we agree that racism is wrong! Everybody who practises racism in public is gonna get caught (or at least that's what they're trying to do). So when these things (racism and such) happen (and the DO happen indeed, which is very sad!) it is NOT tolerated by the government.
That's why a racist political party CAN'T EXCIST, since it is AGAINST the rules. Such political parties are not tolerated.
But...
As a society we agree that sexism is wrong! So why can these videoclips be shown on television without shame? Why is it tolerated?
Racism in public (television) isn't tolerated.
Sexism on public television is tolerated.

These videoclips and the whole culture and atmosphere around it should be banned from publicity (which will not prevent it from going further underground of course).


-Paco

[PH]

Oh and don't forget to read my starting post again and read all the other post of mine in the same line.

[Nicky007]

Paco, I'll have to leave the discussion on youths, sex, hiphop, and the media to you and others, as I'm not very knowledgeable in that field. I haven't had any kids of my own, and the only youths I know well are Ms 007's sons and you guys, who are well-integrated individuals, dealing with all these things in a mature and critical way.


Let's take some other issues:

> Again, this music ["white power" and Islamicist] isn't tolerated in society. You won't hear it on radio or tv. This is strictly limited to people who search for it (much like prog).

You're right that this stuff - fortunately - is banned from the media and public places. The problem here is that the relatively few individuals involved are extremely dangerous. These are primitive people, who don't have scruples about beating others to death (e.g. Nazis), and that see the killing of heathens as their "holy duty", even if it costs them their own lives (Islamicists). And both groups use music - on the internet and in secret venues - as a highly efficient medium to catch new adherents.


> I think this is called generalizing... [about homosexuals not being attracted to prog]

My statement wasn't a guess, Paco; it was based on my experiences with the hundreds of proggies that I've met in real life and on the net, and my knowledge of the musicians. I have some thoughts about why that is so, but they would be difficult to express without seeming prejudiced.


> I respect a homosexual, but don't respect the one who's driving across the streets and provokingly are doing sexual (gay) gestures.

I don't really see this as a problem. Heteros in general don't watch gay parades, so the homos end up doing these things for their buddies, and that's their business.


> ... don't forget that that's exactly what they believe: God wrote the Quran. Waving this off as ridiculous is undermining their entire fundament.

That goes for the fundamentalists, just like we have our fundamentalists in the Christian community. Modern individualised Muslims use the Quran as inspiration, and relate what they read there to the real world.

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

Paco, looks like we've confounded our fellow roomies with our massive gabbering 

OK guys, return to normal mode: What kinda beer d'ya like? 

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

The true way is to combine different pieces to see the whole picture, you need the Holy Spirit during this, because from ourselves we are always searching for verses to suite our own directions.

This is very mature, Paco. Luv'it     

Nicky.

[PH]

Paco, I'll have to leave the discussion on youths, sex, hiphop, and the media to you and others, as I'm not very knowledgeable in that field. I haven't had any kids of my own, and the only youths I know well are Ms 007's sons and you guys, who are well-integrated individuals, dealing with all these things in a mature and critical way.

Ok, that could be true of course. But sex in commercials (media) for example, you have an opinion on that, right? I mean, it's all over the place! And it's always so superficial...

You're right that this stuff - fortunately - is banned from the media and public places. The problem here is that the relatively few individuals involved are extremely dangerous. These are primitive people, who don't have scruples about beating others to death (e.g. Nazis), and that see the killing of heathens as their "holy duty", even if it costs them their own lives (Islamicists). And both groups use music - on the internet and in secret venues - as a highly efficient medium to catch new adherents.

Yeah, but now in line with the topic subject, how would you solve this problem? (since you can't control it)

My statement wasn't a guess, Paco; it was based on my experiences with the hundreds of proggies that I've met in real life and on the net, and my knowledge of the musicians. I have some thoughts about why that is so, but they would be difficult to express without seeming prejudiced.

Most people don't listen to prog music, that has got nothing to do with gays...
Gays and heteros, they all hate prog music, they rather listen to pop music (or HipHop...), some listen to jazz, (normal) rock or classical music.
I don't see why especially homosexuals wouldn't like prog music...

> I respect a homosexual, but don't respect the one who's driving across the streets and provokingly are doing sexual (gay) gestures.

I don't really see this as a problem. Heteros in general don't watch gay parades, so the homos end up doing these things for their buddies, and that's their business.

No you're wrong. They are driving through the streets! It's not that they reserve a venue and do their things there. I wouldn't have a problem with that, since I don't go there. No, they're going public!
You're walking in town and suddenly a gay parade is crossing your way doing all kind of things you don't want to see. I think this is highly provocative and shouldn't be tolerated.

-Paco

[PH]

Where are all the other Roomies?
Come on! I think we all have an opinion about these subjects!

[bluepony]

Well... to be honest, I'm not very much interested in politics, so I've never thought about forming a political party (or even joining one). Of course I do have an opinion on all that you and Nicky discussed here, but I suspect Nicky would be very disappointed if for example I admit that I'm not a feminist at all, or that I find jokes about blondes (very famous here in Germany) highly entertaining... 

In general I'm very much in favour of a "live and let live" philosophy - but not at any cost. However, it is very difficult where to draw a line; where does protection of the public end and where does censorship begin?

[Nicky007]

You're walking in town and suddenly a gay parade is crossing your way doing all kind of things you don't want to see.

If you don't want to have them doing things you don't want to see and feel, then stop walking right in front of a gay in the middle of their parade and wiggling your a*, Paco 

> I don't see why especially homosexuals wouldn't like prog music... 

OK, guess I'll have to give it a try now. Ho, hum ... hum. Let's see. How should we put it? .... OK:

To enjoy prog, you have to be a person with a very rich inner life, and not be too much bothered by what's going on around you and what other people think about you, you know, close off the outer world. Maybe one day gays will also have such a peace, but presently they're very occupied with finding themselves and legitimising themselves, and therefore they put on such a show. The sort of music they like relates to this condition: cabaret, vaudeville, all sorts of excessive and showy stuff.

OK, now I tried. Does this hit home somewhat?

Nicky.