Beliefs

[Vanderwoude]

I was wondering what your opinions are about beliefs. Beliefs are often harmless, but sometimes, I find it difficult to talk with people with a certain strong belief. Even if you are really sure about something you think is true, and you have thinked about it for hundreds of hours, you can't convince certain people that you're right.

[Appelmoes??]

That's why it is called  "believe" instead of "certainty" Although it is a cetrainty for the person who believes it

I think you need to be very carefull when you have a believe and when you are talking to someone that doesn't agree. You must not try to enforce your opinion to someone else. I think that is the reason why so many religious-people are killing society with terrorism

[Vanderwoude]

In the past, I've tried to confince people of my opinions, but I experienced that it is very hard, or even impossible to take down someones belief. So today when meet someone with a different opinion, I try to think first if it's really nescesarry to confince that person. Most of the time it's not. Maybe in the Western world, beliefs are less dangerous, because they are more tolerated.

[PH]

Necessarity of convincing people of your own believe is natural.
I hope all my friends will become Christians. For their own good. (Questionable, I know). Therefore I convince them.

[Vanderwoude]

But If you try to stand 'above' it all, and you see two people trying to convince eachtother that only in their own belief there will be salvation. What should a third person say of this all? How can he know how he has to get 'salvation'? If there is only one belief, or only one god, shouldn't this god use his 'hand of god' to lead us? I'm really shure there isn't a god who tries to do everything to salvate as many people as possible. There just aren't enough clues to say this, and that is also the reason, if there is such a god, that this god isn't trying hard enough. Seems a bit like an impossibility, doesn't it?

[Appelmoes??]

Man isn't trying hard enough, not God (imo ).

One of the mean reasons I believe is the fact that I can see the hand of God all over this planet. In the big things like colourfull sunsets and the beauty of the stars, to the tiny complexity of even something simple as a bacteria. I just can't believe that all life on this amazing planet is coincidence. A lucky mix of aminoacids at the right time at the right place that formed DNA and evolved to incomprehensible complex beings like humans. I believe God had a hand in that.

[PH]

That's something Vanderwoude understands.
But his problem with God is that IF there's a God wouldn't he show us that He is God?
Some say Allah is The One, others say God is The One.
If there's indeed a god, wouldn't He be God enough to show himself? Others shouldn't convince the others, if there's a god, He can do it by Himself.

I think that's a fair idea.

Therefore I don't even try to convince a muslim, but I might try to convince an atheist though.

[Appelmoes??]

What Christianity you're from Appelmoes??
I'm "Christelijk Gereformeerd".

Okay maybe we should get back on topic indeed.

That would be reformed for PH, and for me "gereformeerd vrijgemaakt" which would translate as 'liberated reformed'.
idiotic btw, all those tiny differences

[PH]

That would be reformed for PH, and for me "gereformeerd vrijgemaakt" which would translate as 'liberated reformed'.
idiotic btw, all those tiny differences

That's funny. I asked that in another thread.

About these differences:
There are some fusions going on (PKN).
But with that fusion not everybody was happy...

(Ehhmm... not really interesting for the non-dutch... , so maybe we should  get back on topic.

[Appelmoes??]

That's funny. I asked that in another thread.

Yes, but here we are more ontopic then there

About these differences:
There are some fusions going on (PKN).
But with that fusion not everybody was happy...

No, the "top guys" were d*ck*ng about the name "gereformeerd" and that "gereformeerd vrijgemaakt" had no right to use that name How can you lose track on God so much? What's in a name?

[Vanderwoude]

Man isn't trying hard enough, not God (imo ).

One of the mean reasons I believe is the fact that I can see the hand of God all over this planet. In the big things like colourfull sunsets and the beauty of the stars, to the tiny complexity of even something simple as a bacteria. I just can't believe that all life on this amazing planet is coincidence. A lucky mix of aminoacids at the right time at the right place that formed DNA and evolved to incomprehensible complex beings like humans. I believe God had a hand in that.

I agree that some things are really extrodinary, and I haven't figured out an answer on many (yet). But this is definitely not a proof, or a clue that there should be a godlike figure above, and certainly not proof that christianity is the true belief.

My main problem with christianity is that I think the faith that God chose for mankind is really not preferable. I can give many examples of this, like the pain and hurt in the world, and the things Adam and Eve went through, I think that could never been a cause for hurt and pain, pain and hurt could more easily be the cause of the choices of Adam and Eve. But that couldn't be true either because the two have been perfected. If this God really excists, it would be better that he give us clues that he does excist, in stead of clues that he doesn't.

[Appelmoes??]

Again, you don't see those things as clues, other people do, it's personal.

About Adam and Eve. A&E were corrupted by the devil when he talked about what the fruit would do. They chose to eat the fruit agains Gods will, so they have to face the consequences. Since they were the representatives of mankind at that time, their sin is mankinds sin. imo that is.

[NijntjeRocks]

The point is, God would have mankind to be able to choose for their own, thats where the perfection lies in.
people arent just puppets to choose what God finds right or wrong, but people are able to judge for themselves.

Its our own choice to live with or without  God or something else, and Im glad my choice is really MY choice.

Many people have an expectation of God, if exists, to be a protector of mankind and the earth in a progressive way.
But if he really should do so and just enforced global peace, this peace wouldnt be the choice of the people themselves and He would corrupt His own model of a perfect human being.

[Vanderwoude]

I have heard the argument of human's 'free will' many times before, but I think this argument has got a fatal flaw. You can not blame the 'free will' for the fact that A&E took from the tree. And I'm really concinced that mankind could have been less selffish as it is. There's no excuse to act selffish. Mankind could have had a free will and in the same time be kind to eachother.

[NijntjeRocks]

Mankind could have had a free will and in the same time be kind to eachother.

Still can, still happens, but since many people put their own ideas above that of others it can endup in a fight, or even a war.

To be kind to each other means giving and taking for both parties and when someone lacks the giving-part he chooses not to be kind.

I dont blame the free will but the one who chooses. As I blame A&E for their choice to eat from the fruit.

But it doesnt take anything away from the idea of a perfect human being, the point is that in this perfection, making a choice can result in bad things when people misuse their power to choose (wherein also the power lies to choose for their own selves instead of choosing for (peace among) eachother).

I have the idea that people expectating too much from God, and when they see he doesnt mach up with their expectations, they hook off. (is that a term to use in english?? )

[Vanderwoude]

Still can, still happens, but since many people put their own ideas above that of others it can endup in a fight, or even a war.

To be kind to each other means giving and taking for both parties and when someone lacks the giving-part he chooses not to be kind.

I dont blame the free will but the one who chooses. As I blame A&E for their choice to eat from the fruit.

But it doesnt take anything away from the idea of a perfect human being, the point is that in this perfection, making a choice can result in bad things when people misuse their power to choose (wherein also the power lies to choose for their own selves instead of choosing for (peace among) eachother).

I have the idea that people expectating too much from God, and when they see he doesnt mach up with their expectations, they hook off. (is that a term to use in english?? )

So why should whole mankind pay for the mistakes of two people? I don't say that I am 'rather good,' I'm dissapointed in myself many times, but I'm more dissapointed in mankind in general.

I don't say that God should have made humans perfect, but he could have made them a lot better.

And don't you think that A&E really trusted God? Why have they done something that God had forbidden, had God asked too much? That seems to me like a lack of trust.

I don't think that I've expected too much of God, I know what's written in the bible, and it contains a few characteristics of God. God is love and God is justice. But that contradicts what I'm seeing in the bible and in life in general.

[PH]

God is love and God is justice. But that contradicts what I'm seeing in the bible and in life in general.

Quick side note:
Love and justice, there's no contradiction. When a child takes a cookie while daddy said "No!", daddy slaps/hits/punch/kicks the child (different degrees ), not because he likes hitting his child, but because he wants to protect him.
Another one:
The child wants to drink from a poisonous fluid.
Daddy: "No! Don't drink that, it's not good for you!"
The child thinks: "It looks good, it has such a nice colour, it looks like I can drink it." So the child takes the bottle of poison and brings it to his lips.
Daddy sees it and is just in time to take it away from the child.
Daddy gives the child a punch (that sounds too cruel, but I don't know any other words...), and the child hopefully learned about it.

[NijntjeRocks]

So why should whole mankind pay for the mistakes of two people? I don't say that I am 'rather good,' I'm dissapointed in myself many times, but I'm more dissapointed in mankind in general.

I don't say that God should have made humans perfect, but he could have made them a lot better.

And don't you think that A&E really trusted God? Why have they done something that God had forbidden, had God asked too much? That seems to me like a lack of trust.

What is your definition of 'better'?
it seems to me, when you define 'better' you coime up with a general idea of 'good behaviour' but when you make humans to behave like 'good' you take away their freedom, their power to choose somethingelse, and you are instently the creator of a puppet wich can only do what its creator finds 'good'

It was Gods wish to make being that can compare themselves, mirror themselves with Himself, that means that these beings should be able to make the same choices, to recognise good and evil and judge for themselves what is right or wrong. In a way humans can place themselves next to God. And you can read that in the bible: A&E spoke and walked with God.

And about the trust thing: Evil wasnt yed introduced to A&E at the time they were set to the choice wether to eat the fruit or not. God hadnt explained to them how or what and they were told it wasnt what God said it was, they got an incredible offer! God said this, and the snake said otherwise, they had to make a choice and the new made offer, which was wrapped in a beautiful sellers-talk sounded too great to refuse.
Difficult to refuse, wich are a lot of choices for us nowadays also, but not every great offer results in the way we want it to.
We just dont oversee the results of every choice in our life, though we might think otherwise many times.

In my opinion it wasnt distrust but the power of persuasion.

[Peter]

It was Gods wish to make being that can compare themselves, mirror themselves with Himself, that means that these beings should be able to make the same choices, to recognise good and evil and judge for themselves what is right or wrong.

And here comes another flaw in the concept: How can a being that is so much less than God, do exactly that: "make the same choices, recognise good and evil, right and wrong"? Right, it cannot. Because it has no idea of the results of his actions, at least not as far and as profoundly as God might. Unfair even, pretty much puppy like, ....to me, ....in a way, to put us human beings into this "godly spectacle".

[Vanderwoude]

And about the trust thing: Evil wasnt yed introduced to A&E at the time they were set to the choice wether to eat the fruit or not. God hadnt explained to them how or what and they were told it wasnt what God said it was, they got an incredible offer! God said this, and the snake said otherwise, they had to make a choice and the new made offer, which was wrapped in a beautiful sellers-talk sounded too great to refuse.
Difficult to refuse, wich are a lot of choices for us nowadays also, but not every great offer results in the way we want it to.
We just dont oversee the results of every choice in our life, though we might think otherwise many times.

In my opinion it wasnt distrust but the power of persuasion.

You sad it like it's something really unimportant, I mean, you can't really deny that this was a very meaningless, almost childish situation. But why are the consequences of this decission so enermous? Why should this be the cause of evil, pain and hurt? And why should have started this the really complicated journey for mankind to judgement day and salvation? I can understand that people want to belong to a group that are going to get salvation, but isn't it strange that first God creates mankind, (I thought it was so he could enjoy looking to it,) and then there the 'sin' comes in the world, and then it's very important for mankind to be salvated?

I was grown up in a christian society, and know that I've told my family and friends that I think this is not the right way, people are getting very worried about me. That has to do with the fact that they believe in judgement day. But if you believe in it, think about the consequences of it to. That's the only reason why I sometimes defend myself on this point, for the rest I know that one person can't know everything and it's not my intention to lay my opinion down on everyone, it's not really a 'belief' from my side, it's more like a choice I have made. And I respect the fact that other people have made other choices.

I was asked many times before about my defenition of good behaviour, and I have thought about it, and I think it's not a too difficult defenition. 'Good behaviour' for me is thinking of other people first, and then thinking about yourself, trying to hurt no one, and doing things to other where you are sure of that these things make them happier. (If you don't know, ask them)

[NijntjeRocks]

And here comes another flaw in the concept: How can a being that is so much less than God, do exactly that: "make the same choices, recognise good and evil, right and wrong"? Right, it cannot. Because it has no idea of the results of his actions, at least not as far and as profoundly as God might. Unfair even, pretty much puppy like, ....to me, ....in a way, to put us human beings into this "godly spectacle".

being able to make a choice (or even the same choice) isnt the same as overseeing the bigger picture, thats part of where we differ from God. So imo we have the power to make the choice, but we have to concider the fact that we lack the knowledge of all aspects to truely understand the importance and/or results of (some) choices.

Might be unfair, yes. But I do believe that I can lay choices i cant judge right in the hands of God.
Where He leads I am able to follow, for He will never lead me into situations I cant handle. Even if it seems so, afterwards I can see that I wasnt alone on the road.

The journey to judgement and salvation is exactly where God interferes. Thats His way to bend right what we did wrong in our misjudgement.
It isnt because of the deed of accepting the fruit by A&E, but in similair situations we would still do the same as they did.
And sometimes healing costs time.
Think of the situation with the child and an highly alcohol-containing drink (with a nice red or yellow breezer-like colour ). It looks nice to the child though his father told him it would hurt him.
And his neighbour-friend persuated him to drink it by saying it is very nice to drink and not as bad as his father told him. So the child tries and as a result he got an alcohol-poisoning.
When his father sees that, he is dissapointed in his childs choice, but he would do anything to save his child and brings him to a hospital to save his child.
But this cant be done in an instant, it takes time and effort to bend right his sons error in judgement.
The child didnt oversee all the aspects of his choice, he couldnt possibly, simply its beyond his capability to understand, and at that point he should have followd his fathers lead instead of taking judgement in his own incapable hands.

This father-child relation is comparable with the God-human relation, so it seems childish to you? youre quiet right about that!

The difficulty lies in the fact that we humans seem to think very high of ourselves, that we know so much and are able to think for ourselves, but the opposite is true.
And when man thinks he can handle things by himself it is very difficult to lay some choices in the hand of someone else.

[Constable Hogweed]

The problem i find with Christianity is why would a loving and benevolent God create Lucifer, knowing that he was going to fall and ultimately drag ex amount of people into the lake of fire with him after the judgement? I have asked this question before, but have got blase answers such as " Oh God is so loving that he couldn't deny Lucifer existence" i am not sold by that in the slightest. Surely it would have been better to deny one angel existence in order to prevent that ex amount of people being tormented for all eternity?
Maybe i am getting this all wrong, but that concept doesn't sit right with me and sounds like something man would have dreamed up to keep people under control
- What better than fear?

[NijntjeRocks]

there we have a Pratchett-lover

I can imagine you arent impressed by the "all-love-story" I wouldnt either.

Personally it is one of the things I dont understand as well, probably we will never get an proper answer in our lifetime on earth.

In my personal philosophy God and (fallen) angels are in a different sort of dimension, with a fourth (or more) dimension we, humans have no insight in.
So I cant give you a reason why, the only thing I can do is to accept the fact that there are questions left unanswered, but I am sure there is an explanation outside our understanding.

I grew up with christianity so I guess for me it is easyer to accept that there is more than I can explain an to trust God in all that matter.
For you I can imagine that it seems like sticking my head into the ground each time I dont know the answer.
But thats exactly the part that makes religion a belief, you have to believe it, its not reasonable, thats where reason ends ands believe starts.
There are many people who reason like science and there is no room for other stuff, everything must have a reason or explanation. For that group it is very difficult to understand what believe contains.

[Vanderwoude]

there we have a Pratchett-lover

I can imagine you arent impressed by the "all-love-story" I wouldnt either.

Personally it is one of the things I dont understand as well, probably we will never get an proper answer in our lifetime on earth.

In my personal philosophy God and (fallen) angels are in a different sort of dimension, with a fourth (or more) dimension we, humans have no insight in.
So I cant give you a reason why, the only thing I can do is to accept the fact that there are questions left unanswered, but I am sure there is an explanation outside our understanding.

I grew up with christianity so I guess for me it is easyer to accept that there is more than I can explain an to trust God in all that matter.
For you I can imagine that it seems like sticking my head into the ground each time I dont know the answer.
But thats exactly the part that makes religion a belief, you have to believe it, its not reasonable, thats where reason ends ands believe starts.
There are many people who reason like science and there is no room for other stuff, everything must have a reason or explanation. For that group it is very difficult to understand what believe contains.

For me my main reasons why I have left christianity aren't scientific, it is my moral vision on mankind and the world. I thought about and I know that I've been honest to myself, though, that doesn't mean I'm perfect and that I can reason myself out of every question.

I've experienced that with most christians it's impossible to convince them. That's because they grew up with it and if they leave christianity, they deny something that they have believed for a very long time, and that has become a very important part of their life. And it maybe is very difficult to be honest to yourself in such a situation. Maybe this sounds a bit rude, but there are other examples of this: mankind have believed for a very long time that the earth was flat, and that raccism was a good thing.

[NijntjeRocks]

I've experienced that with most christians it's impossible to convince them.

thats with almost every believe, I include followers of explicit philosophical ideologies like Atheists as well.
I think its because of the fact that the 'belief-part'  (the part that cant be reasoned nor explained, and especially not being understand by outsiders) is an 'uncatchable' thing.
And since convincing only can be done by reasoning or explicit proof, it is almost undoable to try to convince a believer of any kind.

If ever in a discussion with someone that doesnt share your opinion; the only thing that can be done is trying to understand what moves the other and learn from it and accept and respect the other as he is.

With that in mind, I'd like to know what moral vision you have and on what you base them. How do you judge your moral vision? it is somehow: what do you believe?