Which groups are prog?

[Nicky007]

I'd like to make use of the expertise here in the Room to get a clearer picture of what we mean by prog.

Instead of trying to devise some complicated formula, let's do it the easy way: Select the groups that we can more or less agree upon as living up to the designation prog.

The rule is that if three or more roomies can agree on a group, then it's included.


Definitely prog

Angra
Arena
Ayreon
Circus Maximus
Credo
Dream Theater
Enchant
Fates Warning
Final Conflict
Fish
Flower Kings
Frameshift
Frost*
Genesis
Glass Hammer
Michael Harris
IQ
It Bites
Jadis
Kaipa
Kamelot
Kansas
King Crimson
Kino
Landmarq
Magenta
Magic Pie
Marillion (with Fish)
Marillion (with H)
Neal Morse
Mostly Autumn
Neo
Nolan And Wakeman
Opeth
Pain Of Salvation
Pallas
Pendragon
Pink Floyd
Porcupine Tree
Pure Reason Revolution
Queensrÿche
The Reasoning
Redemption
RPWL
Rush
Shadow Gallery
Shadowland  (UK)
Sieges Even
Spock's Beard
Strangefish
Stride
Sun Caged
Sylvan
Symphony X
Thought Chamber
3
Threshold
Tool
Transatlantic
Steve Vai
Vanden Plas
The Watch
Winterstrain
Yes
Zero Hour


Candidates

Amaran's Plight  1
Anathema
Jon Anderson  1
Andromeda  2
Beyond Twilight
Blackfield
Blind Ego  2
Blind Guardian  1
Cairo  2
Camel  1
Chroma Key  1
Clepsydra  2
Coheed And Cambria  1
Conception  1
Cryptic Vision  1
Dark Tranquillity
Darwin's Radio  1
Deadsoul Tribe  2
Dreamscape
Dredg  1
Echolyn  2
Eloy  2
Emerson, Lake and Palmer  1
Everon  1
Peter Gabriel
Galeon  1
The Gathering 1
Gazpacho  1
Gentle Giant
David Gilmour  2
Karnataka
Katatonia  1
Knight Area  2
Led Zeppelin  1
Mars Volta
O.S.I.  1
Pagan's Mind  2
Paradise Lost
A Perfect Circle  1
Pilgrym  1
Robert Plant  1
Queens Of The Stone Age  1
Radiohead
Lou Reed
Royal Hunt  1
Saga  2
Savatage  1
Solar
Spiral Architect  1
Stiltskin
Supertramp
Steve Thorne
Ten  1
Tiles  1
Tomorrow's Eve  1
Twelfth Night  1
U.K.  2
The Urbane
Roger Waters  2
Rick Wright  1
Wuthering Heights
John Young  1
Frank Zappa  1


Not prog

Alice In Chains
Amorphis
Asia
Beatles
Chris Cornell
Faith No More
Korn
Motorhead
Muse
Pearl Jam
Queen
Soundgarden
Stranglers
Toto
U2


Nicky.

[bluepony]

Mmm... I certainly agree that for example Dark Tranquility, Queensryche, Savatage or Rush do have 'prog moments', but I wouldn't consider them pure prog bands... Marillion definitely are... Frameshift too... as are RPWL... but Korn?! (If my brother listens to it, it CANNOT be prog! ) And I thought Alice In Chains, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden were labelled 'grunge'...

[Nicky007]

Thanks for you opinion, Bluey.

Yeah, Marillion will probably end up on the list, but we have to decide whether both periods are prog.

I of course know that Alice In Chains are grunge - very much so I would say - but I personally would also designate them as prog; but I'd like to hear others' opinions.

It's a question of where we lay the limit of prog (which I consider a mark of excellence, even though we don't need to apply it outwardly, as Stuart wisely questioned).

A common mistake: Note that Dark Tranquillity is with two l's (especially you, Maddox  ).

I expect a lively debate on this thread.

Nicky

[bluepony]

It's a question of where we lay the limit of prog

Keyboards! Prog needs keyboards. Simple as that. 

[Nicky007]

Certainly keyboards make a big difference, Bluey, but how about Zero Hour? They don't use keyboards at all, and I would fight to death to keep the prog label on them. Opeth have only rarely used keyboards (although now it looks like they want a permanent keyboard player), and O are very much prog imho.

Nicky.

[bluepony]

I couldn't say I know Zero Hour well, so I prefer not to put them into any drawer, prog or not, but Opeth with all their grunts are pretty much death/black metal, aren't they?

[Bupie]

Hey Nicky,

Did you notice that Fates Warning is on both lists ? Does it mean something special ?  

About the first list : I know I'm going to shock many people here but from what I know from Threshold, it's just hard rock with keyboards, not prog.

About the second list :

Asia is not prog even if it includes a ton of prog musicians.

Kansas and Marillion are IMHO obviously prog. Leftoverture and Misplaced Childhood would be in my top 10 of better prog albums of all times.

Glass Hammer is prog. Some Shadowland songs are prog (Jigsaw, for instance).

I don't see any prog in the It Bites albums that I own. I don't see any prog in Led Zeppelin or Muse neither, for instance, and very few in Toto.

Speaking of limits, Shadow Gallery is a good example of a band on the edge : some (good) mainstream tunes and some long prog epics.

My two cents but, to be honest, I am not found of classifications ...  

[Nicky007]

My two cents, but, to be honest, I am not found of classifications ...  

Well, you did a good job nonetheless, Bupie. Thanks for your three cents.

In all humility (and I remain your most humble servant), I think that this is one of the more relevant classification exercises.

Yeah, Fates Warning are of course prog (anyone disagree = beating).

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

... but Opeth with all their grunts are pretty much death/black metal, aren't they?

OK, I'll leave that open to discussion, Bluey.

Nicky.

[bluepony]

I think we also need to discuss Britney Spears - what does she do on that list?! 

[bluepony]

I know I'm going to shock many people here (...)

Well, I'm not shocked. 

(...) from what I know from Threshold, it's just hard rock with keyboards, not prog.

That doesn't make them less great, though! 

[Bupie]

That doesn't make them less great, though! 

That was the point of my final remark to Nicky : what matters is the emotion that the music brings, whatever the style. But it doesn't prevent us from discussing about the proginness  () of bands, of course. 

[PH]

I agree with your first list Nicky. Those are indeed prog bands.

From the second list I think these are prog:

Deadsoul Tribe
Emerson, Lake and Palmer
Fish
Frameshift
Glass Hammer
It Bites
Kansas
Marillion (with Fish)
Marillion (with H)
Nolan and Wakeman
O.S.I.
Pure Reason Revolution
Queensrÿche
RPWL
Rush
Shadow Gallery
Shadowland
Twelfth Night
Frank Zappa

The rest is in my opinion not prog, or I don't know them good enough to tell.

[Nicky007]

Thanks, guys. I think we can now safely put Marillion (with Fish), Marillion (with H), Fish, Frameshift, Kansas, and RPWL on the prog list.

I'd also personally like Threshold on the prog list, particularly considering their old, lighter stuff.

So, how about Opeth? Are they a prog group?

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

I think we also need to discuss Britney Spears - what does she do on that list?! 

That's an old tradition, Bluey - look back 

Nicky.

[johninblack]

Just to put a bleeding great big spanner in the works here......There are bands who show massive progression from album to album (One of the definitions of prog) who clearly are not what we call prog. So really we need to be saying we have these categories......


Prog (What we would call prog including Neo prog and all that)
Prog related (Bands that have prog influence but are not prog as we know it)
Prog within genre (Bands that progress over time but are of a different genre)


And of course there's that other thing, Opinion, we've all got one and they all vary somewhat.  Marillion(Fish ere)  they would be one of the first on my list of 'Proper Prog Bands' That would be my opinion. H era not so sure.

[Nicky007]

Just to put a bleeding great big spanner in the works here

OK with me, John. I'm a bit like that too 


> There are bands who show massive progression from album to album (One of the definitions of prog) who clearly are not what we call prog.

Like?


> So really we need to be saying we have these categories:

> Prog (What we would call prog including Neo prog and all that)
> Prog related (Bands that have prog influence but are not prog as we know it)
> Prog within genre (Bands that progress over time but are of a different genre)

Let's stick to the first category for a while.

> And of course there's that other thing, Opinion, we've all got one and they all vary somewhat.  Marillion (Fish era), they would be one of the first on my list of 'Proper Prog Bands' That would be my opinion. H era not so sure.

That's why this is an experiment, John. I'd like to see if we can reach something like an agreement on what prog is. I think we've already made some interesting progression in that direction.

If not, well, I guess I'll be hanging next to Paco (at least I'll have good company) 

Nicky.

[PH]

I'd also personally like Threshold on the prog list, particularly considering their old, lighter stuff.

Put them on the list!

So, how about Opeth? Are they a prog group?

Yup, they are as progressive as can be.
But the question is, do you like it.
I only like Damnation from start to finish, and the rest is to Death Metal for me (the growls you know... I try to like it, but...)


The problem often is that you like prog, and then you want every band you like to be prog... or something...
And every band that is prog, you want to like, but that's not always the case.

So in the end I end up liking bands that aren't prog and disliking bands that are absolutely prog.
But that has been said before so I'll shut up now.

[Nicky007]

Put them on the list!

OK OK OK.

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

Yup, they [Opeth] are as progressive as can be.

We need at least one more vote.


> But the question is, do you like it. I only like Damnation from start to finish, and the rest is too Death Metal for me (the growls you know... I try to like it, but...)

It's taken me a long time, Paco, but yes, now I also like the parts with Mikael growling, although I prob would like them even better with clean aggressive singing, maybe the way Alan Reed sings "Why was I sent here? God only knows! Now I'm wandering in a desert of desperate souls".

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

OK, guys, let's hear some more opinions: Should The Reasoning and Final Conflict be on our prog list?

I don't know them, so I can't contribute.

Nicky.

[bluepony]

> There are bands who show massive progression from album to album (One of the definitions of prog) who clearly are not what we call prog.

Like?

How about... Amorphis? And of course Anathema! (before I mix 'em up again I think I'll just name both )

[Bupie]

OK, guys, let's hear some more opinions: Should The Reasoning and Final Conflict be on our prog list?

I don't know them, so I can't contribute.

Nicky.

For The Reasoning, if you consider Magenta or Mostly Autumn prog (I do), definitively yes ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVlJ91ZDlYc

[johninblack]

I'll make it a third for Opeth

> There are bands who show massive progression from album to album (One of the definitions of prog) who clearly are not what we call prog.

Like?

The Stranglers, always concidered to be a punk band (Certainly the first 2 albums) but then they went and did some very very different material, while still sounding like themselves.

!st album - Rattus Norvegicus - Out and out Punk Rock? Probably, but the final track at 7:53......bit long for your usual punk tune
2nd album - No More Heroes - Follows on nicely, pretty much more of the same, again final track 7:05 Punk Rock Epics
3rd album - Black & White - Starts off pretty much as a follow on from the last, but then it goes and gets DARK and lots more Synth sounds.
4th album - The Raven - Somewhat lighter than the previous, loads more Keys, more melody but still so obviously The Stranglers
5th album - The Gospel According to The Meninblack - First track the wonderfull Waltzinblack, anyone familier with the Kieth Floyd Cooking Programs will know this, and yes it is a waltz. Very strange album this, a concept album to start with and probably their darkest album dealing with Extra Terrestrial Takeover.

I could go on but enough said. They are one of these bands who you can tell straight away from the sound who it is yet are able to take that sound to so many levels.

[johninblack]

OK, guys, let's hear some more opinions: Should The Reasoning and Final Conflict be on our prog list?

I don't know them, so I can't contribute.

Nicky.

Too bloody right, DO IT NOW!