Twilight of the Bands

[creme anglais]

Handy you bring up the subject of bullsh*t, because talking about music but not wanting think about the issues the musicians we admire face is like keep and cow but  hoping it don't  poop!

Unfortunately, unpalatable as it seems, these issues are REAL and threaten (REALLY) to topple the viability of our favourite bands to continue.

Now we could continue to talk about music and ignore this issue but when do you think it will dawn on us that all our favourite bands have gone to the wolves?

You are right of course when you say it is those who download and DO NOt buy that are making the serious dint in things, but unforutnately they make up the biggest percentage of downloaders. Even folk who consider themselves fans.
But why should you assume the right to 'try before you buy' ? Surely the musicians themselves should make that choice, and we as fans should respect it?
There is SO much music now on myspace, youtube, official websites etc etc that you could listen for MONTHS and never here the same track twice!
I think we should recpect that and not take what we have not been offered!

To solve the problem you suggest Nick thinks of something else, so Nick Barrett becomes a plumber, Clive has a shelf stacking job in Tescos...etc...etc.... what do you suggest to these guys that they actually do if the theft of their material means that they no longer are able to work as musicians?

I for one believe that my life would be much, much poorer (not in a financial sense) if the music I love was no longer available.
A couple of years ago I shared a holiday cottage with some friends, (not close or long term friends, just folk we knew) we were supposed to be there for 4 days, after day three we left early, there are only so many Britney Spears albums I can stomach....... I love good music, and I want it to continue. Turning away from these serious problems does not help that one liitle bit!

you say
Not buying an album makes sales decrease. (or rather, "not increase", you can't always win, right?  )
but if 20,000 people were buying albums 8 years ago, and now 10,000 decide to download instead of buy, then it is clearly making a DECREASE isn't it?  It's not simply a case of not increasing.


From reading the post by Nick I think his reasons for posting that are clear..... aren't they? He is being pretty open with us....

It stinks I know. But a peg on the nose dosn't not make it less smelly. 

[Nicky007]

It's not the downloading, but the attitude towards downloading that is a problem.
People downloading everything they can get their hands on, are NO FANS.

This is what I wrote too some time ago, and I still think it's correct.

The "problem" is that the amount of CD-releases has increased dramatically during the past years - great for music lovers, but bad for musicians.

Again, the prog musicians are the ones who get squeezed, for at least two reasons:

1. The number of proggies hasn't increased nearly as much as the prog CD-releases, and the relatively few proggies don't have more money in their hands

2. Bullshit "musicians" who are mainly in it for the moolah put out masses of bullshit CD's with all sorts of flashy covers - all sorts of boobs in all sorts of angles, that jive - which serious musicians would never consider doing

But guys, we gotta do something to keep our musicians goin.

Nicky.

[creme anglais]

boobs?

Did I miss the boobs? 

In the world of prog I don't know ANYONE who I would consider "in it for the money" as you say, there isn't any money!

I definitely didn't see boobs...........

[Nicky007]

In the world of prog I don't know ANYONE who I would consider "in it for the money" as you say, there isn't any money!

I definitely didn't see boobs...........

Well, women tend to have a couple, and nowadays one doesn't have to look too hard to see'm, in fact they keep spillin out of my TV ....

OK Creamie, I didn't make it clear, but I was talkin about non-prog musicians - one could almost say "anti-prog" 

Nicky.

[creme anglais]

he he he...... cos there sure aint many boobs in prog!  ;-)

[PH]

Handy you bring up the subject of bullsh*t, because talking about music but not wanting to think about the issues the musicians we admire face, is like keep a cow, but hoping it won't poop!

Heh good one! Although it took me a while before I got wot you wer sayin there.

I'm thinking about the issues, but what can I do but think? I can't just go out and like kill all careless downloaders? It's not that I wouldn't like to, 'cos I would...

Unfortunately, unpalatable as it seems, these issues are REAL and threaten (REALLY) to topple the viability of our favourite bands to continue.

Now we could continue to talk about music and ignore this issue but when do you think it will dawn on us that all our favourite bands have gone to the wolves?

Sure, I realise and I HATE it! But what can we do?
Don't say "stop downloading" 'cos if you had looked on my three roads system, you would see that this got nothing to do with it.

You are right of course when you say it is those who download and DO NOt buy that are making the serious dint in things, but unforutnately they make up the biggest percentage of downloaders.

Yeah, but what exactly is the point in telling us? I've got nothing to do with it. Make a commercial and tell it on tv, maybe we'll reach them that way.

Even folk who consider themselves fans.

This can't be true, 'cos a fan does everything to make sure his idols go on with it.

But why should you assume the right to 'try before you buy' ? Surely the musicians themselves should make that choice, and we as fans should respect it?

Of course, and this is the case with the middle bands like Nick B. said. But I have absolutely no idea how I would ever discover a little band all the way up in Norway...

There is SO much music now on myspace, youtube, official websites etc etc that you could listen for MONTHS and never here the same track twice!

From the same album? Or even the same band? I'm not all impressed by a little snippet of a song or even one song of one album. But maybe you're right. And I do check out the samples on the websites for sure! (Also youtube and myspace, but I don't like snippets made into one medley etc etc)

To solve the problem you suggest Nick thinks of something else, so Nick Barrett becomes a plumber, Clive has a shelf stacking job in Tescos...etc...etc.... what do you suggest to these guys that they actually do if the theft of their material means that they no longer are able to work as musicians?

I don't know. I have no idea what Nick wants me to do with posting his message here in this topic. That's like telling your best friend that you hate a guy he doesn't even know, but you're going all angry and spitting at your best friend 'cos you don't know how to grab the other guy.

I for one believe that my life would be much, much poorer (not in a financial sense) if the music I love was no longer available.

Me too. Made me realise that at times I rather become blind than deaf. (but then again I can't see my girlfriend and becoming deaf could come in handy in a couple of years.)

A couple of years ago I shared a holiday cottage with some friends, (not close or long term friends, just folk we knew) we were supposed to be there for 4 days, after day three we left early, there are only so many Britney Spears albums I can stomach.......

And they left too because they didn't like your music?

you say
Not buying an album makes sales decrease. (or rather, "not increase", you can't always win, right?  )
but if 20,000 people were buying albums 8 years ago, and now 10,000 decide to download instead of buy, then it is clearly making a DECREASE isn't it?  It's not simply a case of not increasing.

Although it's very hard to believe (because there's this certain emotion aspect in it) you CAN NOT by any means say it's a decrease. Just "not increasing". Sounds hard eh? I know...
Music isn't static, music is dynamic.
Those people that did buy an album back then, but don't do it now, are not fans of the band. We should be glad that they DID buy an album back then, because probably they all either sold it on ebay again, or the discs gather dust in a box in the cellar...

It really must have been a kick in the stomach to see how many REAL fans you've got..

[creme anglais]

Yeah, but what exactly is the point in telling us? I've got nothing to do with it.

hmmmm...... I think Nick was responding to a previous comment! 

This can't be true, 'cos a fan does everything to make sure his idols go on with it.

Well, I am afraid it IS true, I have met people at gigs who say they have downloaded EVERYTHING the band have done and have NO intention of buying anything. I have seen people on torrent sites say they are 'the biggest fan of X band'.....

But I have absolutely no idea how I would ever discover a little band all the way up in Norway...
I'm not all impressed by a little snippet of a song or even one song of one album. But maybe you're right. And I do check out the samples on the websites for sure! (Also youtube and myspace, but I don't like snippets made into one medley etc etc)

But, if that snippet or one album track is what is being offered, then that should be all that is taken.... it's like being offered a slice  but taking the whole blooming cake!
Norway has the internet too, people must accept what is offered (ie the snippets) and not get so greedy as to take the whole cake!

Those people that did buy an album back then, but don't do it now, are not fans of the band. We should be glad that they DID buy an album back then, because probably they all either sold it on ebay again, or the discs gather dust in a box in the cellar...

Huh?!?!?!?!!

You think Clive, Mick, Nick (etc etc etc) should be GRATEFUL for the folk that have stopped buying and started downloading?
Well that's the warpedest logic I ever did hear!

It really must have been a kick in the stomach to see how many REAL fans you've got..

That my friend is a pretty sick thing to say don't you think?

Like I say, this is like putting a peg on your nose so you don't smell the poop, it doesn't make it go away.
no one is directing their anger about downloading at you, in a thread that discusses the issue and raises questions about the relevance of the issue, the points made have relevance, and indeed have been posted in answer to questions raised!

CAx

[Peter]

All things said by everyone in this thread is the truth, some to more extent, some less, and some are misunderstandings.

The problem we're really facing is: We don't know if our bands would make more money from CD sales if downloading wouldn't exist. Simple as that, it's a theory nobody can either prove or disprove. When you see thousands of people downloading THEIR WORK OF ART for free, everybody can surely understand that this brings the artists up the ceiling! On the other hand, we don't know how many of those who download are buying/not buying the CDs afterwards, and we don't know how many of them are attending/not attending shows.

My feeling tells me, and that's probably what makes Nick do this post (correct me if I'm wrong here), that the vast majority of downloads are Paco's "road three", or even worse: "download -> don't care -> don't buy -> keep anyway".

If we or governments or ISPs had the means to control all internet traffic, and make those who download music pay for it automatically, then we'd be in a state where the artist would always be rewarded for his work. But what kind of state would that be...

What's left for me to say is: "Chapeau" and Kudos to our bands, for fighting hard to get around doing their thing!

I consider myself a real ARENA fan. I buy EVERY SINGLE THING that can be put in a CD or DVD player, go to at least one or two concerts and buy a piece of ARENA clothing on every tour. Also, I'm running this forum. End of my means to support the bunch, all done gladly and with my heart, would do more if I could.

I play my music to as many people as I can. Prog is strenuous music, not many people want to sit and LISTEN to music, most want background muzak. Still, I think it's worth the try!

[Peter]

Well, I am afraid it IS true, I have met people at gigs who say they have downloaded EVERYTHING the band have done and have NO intention of buying anything. I have seen people on torrent sites say they are 'the biggest fan of X band'.....

Gawd, that's so... just hit 'em up their faces.  Can't believe how these guys can NOT see what a*****les they are.

[cabo]

I really want to buy A NEW ARENA ALBUM!!

[PH]

Well, I am afraid it IS true, I have met people at gigs who say they have downloaded EVERYTHING the band have done and have NO intention of buying anything. I have seen people on torrent sites say they are 'the biggest fan of X band'.....

For this I want to refer to Peter's post and add a FULL AGREEMENT on what he said. Those people should have cut their balls off... And if they're female... well... no wait, let's stay with that...

But, if that snippet or one album track is what is being offered, then that should be all that is taken.... it's like being offered a slice  but taking the whole blooming cake!

I know. But when I DO like a snippet I am already almost certain to buy it.
When I don't like a snippet AT ALL, than I'm glad I didn't make my desicion based on that snippet alone, or else I wouldn't have bought the album in the end.
You get?

Norway has the internet too, people must accept what is offered (ie the snippets) and not get so greedy as to take the whole cake!

Yeah, it's just that I don't really search for a band in Czech Republic for instance. And they certainly aren't searching for me either...

Those people that did buy an album back then, but don't do it now, are not fans of the band. We should be glad that they DID buy an album back then, because probably they all either sold it on ebay again, or the discs gather dust in a box in the cellar...

Huh?!?!?!?!! You think Clive, Mick, Nick (etc etc etc) should be GRATEFUL for the folk that have stopped buying and started downloading?
Well that's the warpedest logic I ever did hear!

No. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear... I'm just a Dutch 19 year old school boy. I'll try to explain:


There could be people who bought an album in the past (The Jewel perhaps, just giving an example) and after a spin in CD player thought... "Yikes! Yuck! Eew!" And either quickly sold it on the flee market again or put it in a box and let it gather dust in the cellar. Let's say there are 4000 people who did it that way.

Then there are also people who bought the same album and thought "Yippee! An album from Pendragon! And wow, it looks good and sounds good *sniff* and it even SMELLS good! YES!!!". Let's say there are 3000 people like that.

Pendragon looks at the accounts "Wow! We sold 7000 copies of The Jewel already! Hurray!".


Then a few years later...


A man surfs the internet and downloads everything he can. Including Pendragon's latest album. he opens WinAmp puts the music in the playlist and thinks "Yikes! Yuck! Eew!". Let's say 7000 people are like that.

Another man also downloads the same album and thinks "Wow! This is great!" and runs to the shop buying the album. "Wow! The cover art is amazing! And the CD is in much better sound quality! Wow! YES!!!" Let's say 2000 people are like that.

And of course there's this man that knows Pendragon since The Jewel. After hearing about the release he's running to the shop and bought it "Yippee! A new album from Pendragon! My favourite band! And wow, it looks good and sounds good *sniff* and it even SMELLS good! YES!!!" These are 3000 people.

Pendragon looks at the accounts: "What?! We sold just 5000 albums this time!! And in the very beginning we even sold 7000 albums!! How's this possible?!" *Listens to the news, watches tv, hears about people downloading music* "Aha!" *checks torrent sites* "AHA!! 9000 people are downloading the music instead of buying it! That means that we could have sold 9000 more albums if the people wouldn't download!"


You see?

That my friend is a pretty sick thing to say don't you think?

No. And I think that now you'll know why I said that. There's the CORE of people who always like and buy the music. But there's also the people who occasionally just like an album. That way you can calculate how many TRUE fans (the core) you've got. And indeed, reality hurts sometimes...

no one is directing their anger about downloading at you

Of course. I know.


I hope I didn't look like a monster to you, cos I'm not that bad. Just pretending.


-Paco

[Nick B]

phew.......I feel a bit knackered after reading that lot! 

er.....OK SO!! We all more or less agree then....that's how I read this. Yes we can split hairs about some of the details but it seems we  do more or less agree on the basics of PH's Road 3 being a big f*** off fundamental problem. Which I think it is.

And.............. here are some split hairs!...
I should point out, regarding what PH wrote in blue is slightly off centre, as slumping sales happended to Pendragon, Arena, IQ, Marillion all at pretty much the same time , so it isn't subject to popularity of an individual band on an album by album basis .

The reason I wrote this is to INFORM...no more no less. You the public will make your choices. A point was raised , the topic here was about downloads and the affect on bands, I responded and feel it to be very relevant to the discussion.
If just 5-10,000 people bought our stuff instead of simply downloading it for free, it would make a massive diffference to our survival, I want people to know what just a small change will make to us and bands like us.

It's all very well to say, you will all need to get 'proper' jobs then. So too then eventually will, all film makers, book writers, journalists, musicians, artists, poets, magazine printers because everyone is starting to get this stuff for free, so none of the creators of it get paid and the value of quality could just take a serious tumble.

The reason  WHY we [and other bands like us] do this is:
For nearly 30 years I have written, performed and  recorded music. Why?
Certainly not for massive financial reward as the prime reason.
There have been times when I  have said ....perhaps we should pack it in when we have had big problems.
But a little voice inside my head has said , NO. I have this strange unquantifiable love for doing this...... and there are a helluva lot of people who have this weird strange unquantifiable love for listening to what we produce...that is THE chemistry, no one knows why,  we all just know it makes sense to us all.
People are on our side, and we are on theirs,  I really want to feel that this is "all for one and one for all!"

Nick x

ps Nicky......didn't mean to sound too brusque! You gotta imagine it said in a Cockney [ London] accent!

[PH]

phew.......I feel a bit knackered after reading that lot! 

Yeah, put us all in a room give us a topic to talk about and we'll ramble away. I really love it that you've actually read back the whole lot. Often, in discussions like these, people tend to forget what we were on about and then it starts going off topic... Checking back is vital for good discussions, understanding each other and so forth.

er.....OK SO!! We all more or less agree then....that's how I read this. Yes we can split hairs about some of the details but it seems we  do more or less agree on the basics of PH's Road 3 being a big f*** off fundamental problem. Which I think it is.

Absolutely!!

And.............. here are some split hairs!...
I should point out, regarding what PH wrote in blue is slightly off centre, as slumping sales happended to Pendragon, Arena, IQ, Marillion all at pretty much the same time , so it isn't subject to popularity of an individual band on an album by album basis.

That wasn't also nessecarily my point. Although of course now and then this is a realistic situation (popularity of an individual band on an album by album basis).
But the idea of my post was that in the past salesnumbers didn't represent the fans, because many people in the past bought an album and never listened to it anymore. Since the rising of the internet, some people don't buy these albums, they download them. Then you have the same sort of people that don't like it and don't buy it. So logically the salesnumbers are lower than # years ago. You cannot base the expected salesnumbers of a coming album on the salesnumbers you've had before the rising of the internet. But luckily there's the core (the true fans) that bought the albums through the years (before and after the rising of the internet). And now you're safe basing the salesnumbers on the amount of fans. (In my (blue) example this would be 3000.) Then you'll see and can't deny that downloading also brought new fans, because although the salesnumbers are lower, more people are added to the fans-list (2000 in my example).
The problem is, you can't check this. (because there's also the album by album basis)
Well... actually you CAN check how many caring fans you have by having them to buy the album before the recording of it. Like Marillion did.

I hope this was understandable... English isn't my native language and I really was having a hard time getting this typed down...
Just trying to help.


-Paco

[The Butterfly Man]

Hi guys! It's been a while but here I am again, after a couple of hectic weeks!

I thought the following would fit perfectly in the discussion...it's a rather sad message from Mattias Norén, the artist who also did the artwork for some Arena (fanclub) albums like 'The Visitor Revisited', 'Unlocking The Cage' and 'Breakfast In Biarritz'. I took this message from www.progart.com, his website.

Dear all!
I have been running my CD artwork business for a few years now. I guess it's every artist's dream to be able to make a living out of something you really love to do. Unfortunately the music business has really suffered from all illegal downloading. Until about a year ago it didn't really hurt my business, but lately I have struggled with labels and artists asking me to do jobs for them and then they haven't been able to pay me in time... or pay at all. I have heard from other cover artists that they are having the same problems.

When I'm writing this there are 5 labels/artists that owe me money that don't even bother answering my mails anymore. I have a family to feed here... this is simply not working anymore. I still love doing cover art and work with all those fantastic bands out there... but the "business part" has sucked all energy out of me lately. So when a "real" job showed up I decided to take it with a start in January 2008.

I will finish all projects I'm working on at the moment, and while doing this I won't take on any new projects AT ALL. After that ProgArt Media will be something that I can only spend a limited couple of hours a week on.

The situation might change again in the future. I don't know. I just feel that this is what I want to do right now. I hope you can understand and respect my decision. I can tell you, it wasn't an easy one.

/Mattias

Too bad, I really liked his work, and not only on the Arena-albums he did the artwork for. Having said that, I completely understand his decision...

Tom

[Appelmoes??]

Truly sad news

For his business, but also for him personal, now he won't be albe to fully spend what ever time he wants on his passion, on his talent/gift. It will become second after his "real job" and from experience I know it's hard to pick up a pencil after a long and frustrating day. It's hard to get inspired when you're tired and dull from work.

Illegal downloading

[bluepony]

Truly sad news

For his business, but also for him personal, now he won't be albe to fully spend what ever time he wants on his passion, on his talent/gift. It will become second after his "real job" and from experience I know it's hard to pick up a pencil after a long and frustrating day. It's hard to get inspired when you're tired and dull from work.

Well, I think only few of us really can do that... still, it is sad news. 

Illegal downloading

Yes, (illegal) downloadings sucks! 

[Appelmoes??]

Well, I think only few of us really can do that... still, it is sad news. 

But he could, he was good enough to be able to do that. And now, because of some [insert curse] idiots, he is forced to stop doing that. That's just not fair, and in the end, really not necessary. If only politicians would pick this up and take this kind of stealing serious, because world wide, this involves millions, if not billions.

I can only imagine how frustrated and betrayed artists must feel when this happens to them If you like the music, BUY it. You don't go into your friends house, have fun there and when you leave you take the silver cutlery...

[bluepony]

But he could, he was good enough to be able to do that.

I know - I guess what I was trying to say is, I admire (and also envy) anyone who can make their passion their job. I wish I could do that... ah well... after all, I do have the chance to speak several languages, I just wish I wasn't selling something as unexcitinig as wheel locks... *sigh*

I can only imagine how frustrated and betrayed artists must feel when this happens to them If you like the music, BUY it.

Exactly!!

You don't go into your friends house, have fun there and when you leave you take the silver cutlery...

Oh... good you mention it! 

[Nicky007]

Oh... good you mention it! 

Guys, if you need some silver cutlery, you can buy it from Bluey. She has masses 

Nicky.

[bluepony]

Guys, if you need some silver cutlery, you can buy it from Bluey 

Nicky.

Sure - and some fake health insurance ID cards as well! 

[maddox]

That's sad news! 

I really like his work. One of the best cover artists around.

[Peter]

Yeah, sad thing there happening. His catalogue is amazing!

[creme anglais]

It's a sad and harsh fact that downloading (illegally) is damaging not only the musicians themselves but the wider spectrum of folk involved in the process of the whole package.

When musicians speak up about the hurt caused they are often shot down with weak and selfish justifications for (illegal) downloading, but here is a prime example of the bigger picture.

Sound engineers, artists, cd plant staff, printers, producers, there are hundreds involved in getting the music you love into the package you love into your homes. The torrenting of music has such a massive effect.
When music is taken in this way a band has no income to plow into a a great show, they don't know if or where there fans are so a tour becomes an even bigger risk, folk like Mattias are having to look at other avenues of income and eventually the whole package becomes distorted.

Sad news indeed.

CA

[Andrey_G]

Hi, Clive, Nick and all ladies and gentlemen presented here!

I am from Russia, so sorry my bad English.
This topic have touched and upset me very much. I am a big fan of both your bands and neo- and retro-prog in general. Each new release from you is long-awaited and joyful event for me - and I wish you go on.

I have started the topics inspired by that on three russian forums. Here they are:
http://deep-purple.ru/scgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?tid=4822&pid=93065&msg=PstChange#93065 (Deep Purple and classic rock lovers, mostly serious and sober-minded. Some musicians and music journalists also are there. Clive, do you remember Vladimir Milovidov from "InRock" magazine? He is there.)
http://vmeste.org/cgi-bin/dcforum2/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=464&forum=DCForumID7&omm=0 (Art-rock lovers. Unfortunately not very active life is there)
http://forum.exler.ru/index.php?s=df340eab84968747249355e5cabc4348&showtopic=129474 (Musical forum with very very different visitors, without any specialization. At least one journalist is there.)

And there are most common opinions:
1. No use to try change situation. You couldn't reclaim all your audience. Some faithful fans will buy new releales, but certain (and most) people will download anyway. This is happened everywhere - in pop music, heavy - and prog is not an exception.
2. Human mentality have irreversible changed due internet. New generation grown. And they don't even think, that downloading is immoral. I have tried to argue against them, but as if we're talking different languages. There is the Russian word with Jewish origin - халява (halyava). It means "something for nothing, quickly and a lot of" . So halyava is very contagious and depraving thing.
3. Your music is not commercial from the very beginning - you can't reach the big success now, by current state of world musical industry.
4. There are too many bands like you (sorry, it was spoken by not me!) In non-mainsteam genres the BIG public and major labels don't want many similar bands (one Dream Theater, one Iron Maiden, one Metallica etc. are enough) Why don't you try to reach the Metallica's level? - were written. I replied, that you're better than them and I like you for the music you're creating now.
All these things are rather depressing, but anyway, you should adapt yourself to it. Just don't know how.

My question is: most of your catalogue (both Arena and Pendragon, also Threshold, Jadis, Shadowland and many friendly bands) were licensed in Russia by labels Irond, AMG and CD Maximum. The average price is about 3,5-4 pounds. Is it any little profitable for you? Do you feel a Russian contribution to your issue?
I even afraid ask you about a Russian tour... But maybe? How John Mitchell had reported about a visit to us with Mr. Wetton? Two unforgettable gigs - a miracle!

Sincerely yours.
Andrey Gorsky, St.Petersbourg, Russia.

[Nicky007]

Hi Andrey, Welcome to this great site for Arena and other serious bands.

It's real cheering to hear from the serious music scene in Russia.

We're all struggling to stay above water, but the great music is worth it.

Good luck to you over there.

And you have a long cold winter to get through 

By the way, my name, Nicholas Peter, is derived from the Russian czars 

Nicky.