Dutch prog

[Nicky007]

(Impelled by Maddox's Listening Profile) With so many Dutchies here in the Room, I would expect lots of expertise in Dutch prog, which I lack. So how about a lively discussion on Dutch prog?

I'll just mention the two Dutch groups that I like: Ayreon and Sun Caged.

Nicky.

[PH]

- Focus
- For Absent Friends
- Mangrove
- Cliffhanger
- Earth & Fire
- Ekseption
- Epica
- Stream Of Passion
- Ambeon
- Star One
- Ricocher
- Like Wendy
- Knight Area
- Kayak
- Plackband
- Flamborough Head
- The Gathering



Ok, some of them I like and some I absolutely don't like, but you asked for Dutch bands did you?

[Nicky007]

OK, PH, next step: Can you choose your five fave Dutch groups, and tell us what they're like and why you like them.

Thanks.

Nicky.

[PH]

Easy.

1. Ayreon (With Arjen Anthony Lucassen)
2. Star One (With Arjen Anthony Lucassen)
3. Stream Of Passion (With Arjen Anthony Lucassen)
4. Ambeon (With Arjen Anthony Lucassen)
5. Mangrove

I don't really have to explain the first four and the fifth is the best of the worse (seen them at an A.C.T gig).

[Appelmoes??]

PH is right: Ayreon ofcourse, or just everything Arjen touched

Less proggy (but hey, Ayreon isn't really prog either) After Forever. Be careful to buy their older albums first, and you mustn't be shy of growls/grunts. Within Tempation have only 2 albums which I would recommend: Mother Earth and The Silent Force, before is much heavier and has growls and after is just plain commercial crap.

[Nicky007]

Then let me ask you, PH, whether you're familiar with Sun Caged? I witnessed an excellent concert with them at Headway this Easter, which inspired me to buy their second and latest album Artemisia. This is heavy prog of highest caliber. Are Sun Caged really so little known among Dutch proggies?

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

Thanks for the recoms, Appelmoes.

However, now I'm confused: If Ayreon is not prog, then what is, according to your opinion?

Nicky.

[Appelmoes??]

It's folky, progressive, symphonic rock, with some tendencies towards metal sometimes.

[Proglady]

It's folky, progressive, symphonic rock, with some tendencies towards metal sometimes.

So, it is prog! 

[PH]

Of course Ayreon is prog.

I'm not familiar with Sun Caged.

[Proglady]

- Focus
- For Absent Friends
- Mangrove
- Cliffhanger
- Earth & Fire
- Ekseption
- Epica
- Stream Of Passion
- Ambeon
- Star One
- Ricocher
- Like Wendy
- Knight Area
- Kayak
- Plackband
- Flamborough Head
- The Gathering



Ok, some of them I like and some I absolutely don't like, but you asked for Dutch bands did you?

Which bands don't you like? 

[PH]

- Focus
- For Absent Friends
- Mangrove
- Cliffhanger
- Earth & Fire
- Ekseption
- Epica
- Stream Of Passion
- Ambeon
- Star One
- Ricocher
- Like Wendy
- Knight Area
- Kayak
- Plackband
- Flamborough Head
- The Gathering



Ok, some of them I like and some I absolutely don't like, but you asked for Dutch bands did you?

Which bands don't you like? 

Easy.

- Focus
- Epica
- The Gathering

The rest I don't know well enough, except for:
- Ayreon
- Star One
- Stream Of Passion
- Ambeon
- Mangrove (I've seen them live once)

[Nicky007]

Appelmoes, you're very evasive (the moes streams through my fingers   ). Please name five prog groups from anywhere on this earth, in your opinion; or is prog an abstraction?

Nicky.

[Appelmoes??]

So, it is prog! 

Some songs are proggy yes, but other songs are far more metal orientated, while others are folky.

True Prog bands:
Spock's Beard
Flower Kings
Arena
Kaipa
Early Threshold
Early Dream Theater
Neal Morse

I say early, because the've become to "loud" and repetitive in their sound for me to consider them progressive anymore. Symphonic rock/metal suits them better imho.

I also considered naming Transatlantic, but since I already had SP, FK and Kaipa, I felt like that was cheating

The reason I have a very narrowminded vision on progressive rock is the fact that I feel bands which are more guitar orientated, but still have beautiful melodies are symphonic rock. I know it's very hard for bands to have a progressive sound and do it over and over again with every album. Threshold and Dream Theater haven't managed to do so for their last couple of albums, using the same formula of "louder is better". That's not progressing, that's getting louder...
Spock's Beard did indeed surprise me with their last album for having some songs where I thought: "WTF!? Did SB play this?" eg: "Is this Love". And they always have some of those "new sound" songs on their albums. That's growth, that's progressing your sound! You know, when you hear a song from a band, and you instantly recognize the bands sound, but you can't compare it to any other song made by that band. For me personally, that's what makes a rock band, a progressive one. And it's friggin' hard to do

What's so special about Ayreon is that it combines those two. The music does indeed get bigger and bigger with every album, but every album has it's own atmosphere while still being very recognisable as Ayreon.

[Nicky007]

At last I got you out of your cave, Appy. Great delivery, thanks. But I'll give you a thorough beating for your "early Dream Theater" jive 

DT have become more prog with every album they've made. Ask the DT expert, i.e. ME 

Nicky.

[Appelmoes??]

Each his opinion But either way you look at it, they still RAWK!

[PH]

There is "progressive rock".
And there's "progressive" rock.



I like both by the way.

[Nicky007]

PH, you and Appy have a sense for the dramatic. So I'm the foil who devoutly asks: "And what is the difference?"

Nicky.

[PH]

"Progressive Rock" is Spock's Beard, The Flowerkings and more of that sort of bands. They "copy" the style of 70s Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd.
Those bands in the 70s were called "progressive" but bands like Spock's Beard don't progress that much anymore. They take the style of the progressive bands of the 70s.
"Progressive" Rock is truly progressive in the sense of the word. Frost* for example. Or Pure Reason Revolution.

But of course this is all also connected to someone's opinions in the end.

[Nicky007]

OK, fair enough, PH.

I personally don't make that distinction, and I think my definition of prog rock is quite simple (taken from my LP):

Prog rock: Rock music, i.e. music with a tight rhythm, in which the musicians are habitually pushing the frontiers of music and philosophy, i.a. by merging different musical genres.

Nicky.

[PH]

That way, it could be the same as Alternative Rock.

Ah never mind, let's forget it.

Dutch prog... Ah yes...

[Appelmoes??]

"Progressive Rock" is Spock's Beard, The Flowerkings and more of that sort of bands. They "copy" the style of 70s Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd.
Those bands in the 70s were called "progressive" but bands like Spock's Beard don't progress that much anymore. They take the style of the progressive bands of the 70s.
"Progressive" Rock is truly progressive in the sense of the word. Frost* for example. Or Pure Reason Revolution.

But of course this is all also connected to someone's opinions in the end.

imo they don't copy the styles, but they are inspired by them. It's not like they are playing covers of those bands and that they don't have their own style. I can hear that Ayreon for example is inspired by Pink Floyd on some songs, but it's still Arjen playing his thing, and not doing a Floyd-solo.
My view

(I used Arjen as an example to be ontopic )

[PH]

Yeah Appie, I know... (muggen****r)

[Nicky007]

That way, it could be the same as Alternative Rock.

I agree with you, PH, that it's difficult to distinguish between alternative and progressive rock. But I think the "habitually pushing the frontiers of music" very much characterises prog, as alternative is often a matter of finding a mood that one likes and pretty much sticking with that mood, so we proggies kinda get bored with most alternative, particularly goth, which can really be somnific.

Am I all wet with this?

Nicky.

[Appelmoes??]

Yeah Appie, I know... (muggen****r)