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Other Stuff => Metaphysical Stuff => Topic started by: Vanderwoude on Wed, 2005-10-05, 16:27:55

Title: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Wed, 2005-10-05, 16:27:55
I was wondering what your opinions are about beliefs. Beliefs are often harmless, but sometimes, I find it difficult to talk with people with a certain strong belief. Even if you are really sure about something you think is true, and you have thinked about it for hundreds of hours, you can't convince certain people that you're right.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Wed, 2005-10-05, 16:35:13
That's why it is called  "believe" instead of "certainty" ;) Although it is a cetrainty for the person who believes it ???

I think you need to be very carefull when you have a believe and when you are talking to someone that doesn't agree. You must not try to enforce your opinion to someone else. I think that is the reason why so many religious-people are killing society with terrorism :'(
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Wed, 2005-10-05, 16:45:56
In the past, I've tried to confince people of my opinions, but I experienced that it is very hard, or even impossible to take down someones belief. So today when meet someone with a different opinion, I try to think first if it's really nescesarry to confince that person. Most of the time it's not. Maybe in the Western world, beliefs are less dangerous, because they are more tolerated.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: PH on Wed, 2005-10-05, 17:28:55
Necessarity of convincing people of your own believe is natural.
I hope all my friends will become Christians. For their own good. (Questionable, I know). Therefore I convince them.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Wed, 2005-10-05, 17:52:46
But If you try to stand 'above' it all, and you see two people trying to convince eachtother that only in their own belief there will be salvation. What should a third person say of this all? How can he know how he has to get 'salvation'? If there is only one belief, or only one god, shouldn't this god use his 'hand of god' to lead us? I'm really shure there isn't a god who tries to do everything to salvate as many people as possible. There just aren't enough clues to say this, and that is also the reason, if there is such a god, that this god isn't trying hard enough. Seems a bit like an impossibility, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Wed, 2005-10-05, 22:00:32
Man isn't trying hard enough, not God (imo ;)).

One of the mean reasons I believe is the fact that I can see the hand of God all over this planet. In the big things like colourfull sunsets and the beauty of the stars, to the tiny complexity of even something simple as a bacteria. I just can't believe that all life on this amazing planet is coincidence. A lucky mix of aminoacids at the right time at the right place that formed DNA and evolved to incomprehensible complex beings like humans. I believe God had a hand in that.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: PH on Wed, 2005-10-05, 22:26:25
That's something Vanderwoude understands.
But his problem with God is that IF there's a God wouldn't he show us that He is God?
Some say Allah is The One, others say God is The One.
If there's indeed a god, wouldn't He be God enough to show himself? Others shouldn't convince the others, if there's a god, He can do it by Himself.

I think that's a fair idea.

Therefore I don't even try to convince a muslim, but I might try to convince an atheist though.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Wed, 2005-10-05, 22:36:10
What Christianity you're from Appelmoes??
I'm "Christelijk Gereformeerd".

Okay maybe we should get back on topic indeed. :D
That would be reformed for PH, and for me "gereformeerd vrijgemaakt" which would translate as 'liberated reformed'.
idiotic btw, all those tiny differences >:(
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: PH on Thu, 2005-10-06, 07:30:06
That would be reformed for PH, and for me "gereformeerd vrijgemaakt" which would translate as 'liberated reformed'.
idiotic btw, all those tiny differences >:(

That's funny. I asked that in another thread. :)

About these differences:
There are some fusions going on (PKN).
But with that fusion not everybody was happy...

(Ehhmm... not really interesting for the non-dutch... :P , so maybe we should  get back on topic.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Thu, 2005-10-06, 12:35:16
That's funny. I asked that in another thread. :)
Yes, but here we are more ontopic then there ;)

Quote
About these differences:
There are some fusions going on (PKN).
But with that fusion not everybody was happy...
No, the "top guys" were d*ck*ng about the name "gereformeerd" and that "gereformeerd vrijgemaakt" had no right to use that name ::) How can you lose track on God so much? What's in a name?
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Thu, 2005-10-06, 15:16:34
Man isn't trying hard enough, not God (imo ;)).

One of the mean reasons I believe is the fact that I can see the hand of God all over this planet. In the big things like colourfull sunsets and the beauty of the stars, to the tiny complexity of even something simple as a bacteria. I just can't believe that all life on this amazing planet is coincidence. A lucky mix of aminoacids at the right time at the right place that formed DNA and evolved to incomprehensible complex beings like humans. I believe God had a hand in that.

I agree that some things are really extrodinary, and I haven't figured out an answer on many (yet). But this is definitely not a proof, or a clue that there should be a godlike figure above, and certainly not proof that christianity is the true belief.

My main problem with christianity is that I think the faith that God chose for mankind is really not preferable. I can give many examples of this, like the pain and hurt in the world, and the things Adam and Eve went through, I think that could never been a cause for hurt and pain, pain and hurt could more easily be the cause of the choices of Adam and Eve. But that couldn't be true either because the two have been perfected. If this God really excists, it would be better that he give us clues that he does excist, in stead of clues that he doesn't.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Thu, 2005-10-06, 17:13:10
Again, you don't see those things as clues, other people do, it's personal.

About Adam and Eve. A&E were corrupted by the devil when he talked about what the fruit would do. They chose to eat the fruit agains Gods will, so they have to face the consequences. Since they were the representatives of mankind at that time, their sin is mankinds sin. imo that is.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: NijntjeRocks on Thu, 2005-10-06, 17:34:02
The point is, God would have mankind to be able to choose for their own, thats where the perfection lies in.
people arent just puppets to choose what God finds right or wrong, but people are able to judge for themselves.

Its our own choice to live with or without  God or something else, and Im glad my choice is really MY choice.

Many people have an expectation of God, if exists, to be a protector of mankind and the earth in a progressive way.
But if he really should do so and just enforced global peace, this peace wouldnt be the choice of the people themselves and He would corrupt His own model of a perfect human being.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Thu, 2005-10-06, 19:13:39
I have heard the argument of human's 'free will' many times before, but I think this argument has got a fatal flaw. You can not blame the 'free will' for the fact that A&E took from the tree. And I'm really concinced that mankind could have been less selffish as it is. There's no excuse to act selffish. Mankind could have had a free will and in the same time be kind to eachother.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: NijntjeRocks on Thu, 2005-10-06, 19:44:12
Mankind could have had a free will and in the same time be kind to eachother.
Still can, still happens, but since many people put their own ideas above that of others it can endup in a fight, or even a war.

To be kind to each other means giving and taking for both parties and when someone lacks the giving-part he chooses not to be kind.

I dont blame the free will but the one who chooses. As I blame A&E for their choice to eat from the fruit.

But it doesnt take anything away from the idea of a perfect human being, the point is that in this perfection, making a choice can result in bad things when people misuse their power to choose (wherein also the power lies to choose for their own selves instead of choosing for (peace among) eachother).

I have the idea that people expectating too much from God, and when they see he doesnt mach up with their expectations, they hook off. (is that a term to use in english?? :P)
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Thu, 2005-10-06, 20:05:37
Still can, still happens, but since many people put their own ideas above that of others it can endup in a fight, or even a war.

To be kind to each other means giving and taking for both parties and when someone lacks the giving-part he chooses not to be kind.

I dont blame the free will but the one who chooses. As I blame A&E for their choice to eat from the fruit.

But it doesnt take anything away from the idea of a perfect human being, the point is that in this perfection, making a choice can result in bad things when people misuse their power to choose (wherein also the power lies to choose for their own selves instead of choosing for (peace among) eachother).

I have the idea that people expectating too much from God, and when they see he doesnt mach up with their expectations, they hook off. (is that a term to use in english?? :P)

So why should whole mankind pay for the mistakes of two people? I don't say that I am 'rather good,' I'm dissapointed in myself many times, but I'm more dissapointed in mankind in general.

I don't say that God should have made humans perfect, but he could have made them a lot better.

And don't you think that A&E really trusted God? Why have they done something that God had forbidden, had God asked too much? That seems to me like a lack of trust.

I don't think that I've expected too much of God, I know what's written in the bible, and it contains a few characteristics of God. God is love and God is justice. But that contradicts what I'm seeing in the bible and in life in general.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: PH on Thu, 2005-10-06, 20:41:33
God is love and God is justice. But that contradicts what I'm seeing in the bible and in life in general.

Quick side note:
Love and justice, there's no contradiction. When a child takes a cookie while daddy said "No!", daddy slaps/hits/punch/kicks the child (different degrees ;D), not because he likes hitting his child, but because he wants to protect him.
Another one:
The child wants to drink from a poisonous fluid.
Daddy: "No! Don't drink that, it's not good for you!"
The child thinks: "It looks good, it has such a nice colour, it looks like I can drink it." So the child takes the bottle of poison and brings it to his lips.
Daddy sees it and is just in time to take it away from the child.
Daddy gives the child a punch (that sounds too cruel, but I don't know any other words...), and the child hopefully learned about it.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: NijntjeRocks on Thu, 2005-10-06, 21:30:50
So why should whole mankind pay for the mistakes of two people? I don't say that I am 'rather good,' I'm dissapointed in myself many times, but I'm more dissapointed in mankind in general.

I don't say that God should have made humans perfect, but he could have made them a lot better.

And don't you think that A&E really trusted God? Why have they done something that God had forbidden, had God asked too much? That seems to me like a lack of trust.
What is your definition of 'better'?
it seems to me, when you define 'better' you coime up with a general idea of 'good behaviour' but when you make humans to behave like 'good' you take away their freedom, their power to choose somethingelse, and you are instently the creator of a puppet wich can only do what its creator finds 'good'

It was Gods wish to make being that can compare themselves, mirror themselves with Himself, that means that these beings should be able to make the same choices, to recognise good and evil and judge for themselves what is right or wrong. In a way humans can place themselves next to God. And you can read that in the bible: A&E spoke and walked with God.

And about the trust thing: Evil wasnt yed introduced to A&E at the time they were set to the choice wether to eat the fruit or not. God hadnt explained to them how or what and they were told it wasnt what God said it was, they got an incredible offer! God said this, and the snake said otherwise, they had to make a choice and the new made offer, which was wrapped in a beautiful sellers-talk sounded too great to refuse.
Difficult to refuse, wich are a lot of choices for us nowadays also, but not every great offer results in the way we want it to.
We just dont oversee the results of every choice in our life, though we might think otherwise many times.

In my opinion it wasnt distrust but the power of persuasion.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Peter on Thu, 2005-10-06, 23:42:14
It was Gods wish to make being that can compare themselves, mirror themselves with Himself, that means that these beings should be able to make the same choices, to recognise good and evil and judge for themselves what is right or wrong.

And here comes another flaw in the concept: How can a being that is so much less than God, do exactly that: "make the same choices, recognise good and evil, right and wrong"? Right, it cannot. Because it has no idea of the results of his actions, at least not as far and as profoundly as God might. Unfair even, pretty much puppy like, ....to me, ....in a way, to put us human beings into this "godly spectacle".
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Fri, 2005-10-07, 17:44:47
And about the trust thing: Evil wasnt yed introduced to A&E at the time they were set to the choice wether to eat the fruit or not. God hadnt explained to them how or what and they were told it wasnt what God said it was, they got an incredible offer! God said this, and the snake said otherwise, they had to make a choice and the new made offer, which was wrapped in a beautiful sellers-talk sounded too great to refuse.
Difficult to refuse, wich are a lot of choices for us nowadays also, but not every great offer results in the way we want it to.
We just dont oversee the results of every choice in our life, though we might think otherwise many times.

In my opinion it wasnt distrust but the power of persuasion.

You sad it like it's something really unimportant, I mean, you can't really deny that this was a very meaningless, almost childish situation. But why are the consequences of this decission so enermous? Why should this be the cause of evil, pain and hurt? And why should have started this the really complicated journey for mankind to judgement day and salvation? I can understand that people want to belong to a group that are going to get salvation, but isn't it strange that first God creates mankind, (I thought it was so he could enjoy looking to it,) and then there the 'sin' comes in the world, and then it's very important for mankind to be salvated?

I was grown up in a christian society, and know that I've told my family and friends that I think this is not the right way, people are getting very worried about me. That has to do with the fact that they believe in judgement day. But if you believe in it, think about the consequences of it to. That's the only reason why I sometimes defend myself on this point, for the rest I know that one person can't know everything and it's not my intention to lay my opinion down on everyone, it's not really a 'belief' from my side, it's more like a choice I have made. And I respect the fact that other people have made other choices.

I was asked many times before about my defenition of good behaviour, and I have thought about it, and I think it's not a too difficult defenition. 'Good behaviour' for me is thinking of other people first, and then thinking about yourself, trying to hurt no one, and doing things to other where you are sure of that these things make them happier. (If you don't know, ask them)

Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: NijntjeRocks on Sat, 2005-10-08, 00:29:04
And here comes another flaw in the concept: How can a being that is so much less than God, do exactly that: "make the same choices, recognise good and evil, right and wrong"? Right, it cannot. Because it has no idea of the results of his actions, at least not as far and as profoundly as God might. Unfair even, pretty much puppy like, ....to me, ....in a way, to put us human beings into this "godly spectacle".
being able to make a choice (or even the same choice) isnt the same as overseeing the bigger picture, thats part of where we differ from God. So imo we have the power to make the choice, but we have to concider the fact that we lack the knowledge of all aspects to truely understand the importance and/or results of (some) choices.

Might be unfair, yes. But I do believe that I can lay choices i cant judge right in the hands of God.
Where He leads I am able to follow, for He will never lead me into situations I cant handle. Even if it seems so, afterwards I can see that I wasnt alone on the road.

The journey to judgement and salvation is exactly where God interferes. Thats His way to bend right what we did wrong in our misjudgement.
It isnt because of the deed of accepting the fruit by A&E, but in similair situations we would still do the same as they did.
And sometimes healing costs time.
Think of the situation with the child and an highly alcohol-containing drink (with a nice red or yellow breezer-like colour :P). It looks nice to the child though his father told him it would hurt him.
And his neighbour-friend persuated him to drink it by saying it is very nice to drink and not as bad as his father told him. So the child tries and as a result he got an alcohol-poisoning.
When his father sees that, he is dissapointed in his childs choice, but he would do anything to save his child and brings him to a hospital to save his child.
But this cant be done in an instant, it takes time and effort to bend right his sons error in judgement.
The child didnt oversee all the aspects of his choice, he couldnt possibly, simply its beyond his capability to understand, and at that point he should have followd his fathers lead instead of taking judgement in his own incapable hands.

This father-child relation is comparable with the God-human relation, so it seems childish to you? youre quiet right about that! ;)

The difficulty lies in the fact that we humans seem to think very high of ourselves, that we know so much and are able to think for ourselves, but the opposite is true.
And when man thinks he can handle things by himself it is very difficult to lay some choices in the hand of someone else.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Constable Hogweed on Sun, 2005-10-09, 02:23:58
The problem i find with Christianity is why would a loving and benevolent God create Lucifer, knowing that he was going to fall and ultimately drag ex amount of people into the lake of fire with him after the judgement? I have asked this question before, but have got blase answers such as " Oh God is so loving that he couldn't deny Lucifer existence" i am not sold by that in the slightest. Surely it would have been better to deny one angel existence in order to prevent that ex amount of people being tormented for all eternity?
Maybe i am getting this all wrong, but that concept doesn't sit right with me and sounds like something man would have dreamed up to keep people under control
- What better than fear?
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: NijntjeRocks on Sun, 2005-10-09, 09:49:47
there we have a Pratchett-lover :)

I can imagine you arent impressed by the "all-love-story" I wouldnt either.

Personally it is one of the things I dont understand as well, probably we will never get an proper answer in our lifetime on earth.

In my personal philosophy God and (fallen) angels are in a different sort of dimension, with a fourth (or more) dimension we, humans have no insight in.
So I cant give you a reason why, the only thing I can do is to accept the fact that there are questions left unanswered, but I am sure there is an explanation outside our understanding.

I grew up with christianity so I guess for me it is easyer to accept that there is more than I can explain an to trust God in all that matter.
For you I can imagine that it seems like sticking my head into the ground each time I dont know the answer.
But thats exactly the part that makes religion a belief, you have to believe it, its not reasonable, thats where reason ends ands believe starts.
There are many people who reason like science and there is no room for other stuff, everything must have a reason or explanation. For that group it is very difficult to understand what believe contains.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Sun, 2005-10-09, 14:17:55
there we have a Pratchett-lover :)

I can imagine you arent impressed by the "all-love-story" I wouldnt either.

Personally it is one of the things I dont understand as well, probably we will never get an proper answer in our lifetime on earth.

In my personal philosophy God and (fallen) angels are in a different sort of dimension, with a fourth (or more) dimension we, humans have no insight in.
So I cant give you a reason why, the only thing I can do is to accept the fact that there are questions left unanswered, but I am sure there is an explanation outside our understanding.

I grew up with christianity so I guess for me it is easyer to accept that there is more than I can explain an to trust God in all that matter.
For you I can imagine that it seems like sticking my head into the ground each time I dont know the answer.
But thats exactly the part that makes religion a belief, you have to believe it, its not reasonable, thats where reason ends ands believe starts.
There are many people who reason like science and there is no room for other stuff, everything must have a reason or explanation. For that group it is very difficult to understand what believe contains.

For me my main reasons why I have left christianity aren't scientific, it is my moral vision on mankind and the world. I thought about and I know that I've been honest to myself, though, that doesn't mean I'm perfect and that I can reason myself out of every question.

I've experienced that with most christians it's impossible to convince them. That's because they grew up with it and if they leave christianity, they deny something that they have believed for a very long time, and that has become a very important part of their life. And it maybe is very difficult to be honest to yourself in such a situation. Maybe this sounds a bit rude, but there are other examples of this: mankind have believed for a very long time that the earth was flat, and that raccism was a good thing.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: NijntjeRocks on Sun, 2005-10-09, 22:51:51
I've experienced that with most christians it's impossible to convince them.
thats with almost every believe, I include followers of explicit philosophical ideologies like Atheists as well.
I think its because of the fact that the 'belief-part'  (the part that cant be reasoned nor explained, and especially not being understand by outsiders) is an 'uncatchable' thing.
And since convincing only can be done by reasoning or explicit proof, it is almost undoable to try to convince a believer of any kind.

If ever in a discussion with someone that doesnt share your opinion; the only thing that can be done is trying to understand what moves the other and learn from it and accept and respect the other as he is.

With that in mind, I'd like to know what moral vision you have and on what you base them. How do you judge your moral vision? it is somehow: what do you believe? ;)
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Mon, 2005-10-10, 11:16:39
On of my main 'beliefs' (maybe I can call it like that) is that I think that there really is a defenition of 'good behaviour,' I explained that earlier in this topic.
And I experienced that a better society starts with yourself, and I hope that more people are going to see this difference between good en bad behaviour.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: NijntjeRocks on Mon, 2005-10-10, 17:19:16
On of my main 'beliefs' (maybe I can call it like that) is that I think that there really is a defenition of 'good behaviour,' I explained that earlier in this topic.
And I experienced that a better society starts with yourself, and I hope that more people are going to see this difference between good en bad behaviour.
I am wondering.. on what do you judge your (or mankinds) definition of good/bad behaviour?
I mean, when is something good and when is something bad. Ofcourse it partially depends on the situation, but do you 'handle' a grey area between good and bad, and on what do you base your definition of good behaviour?

Is it your personal judgement or do you have an external reference for deciding wether somthing is good or bad?
When it is personal judgement, do you trust mankind to handle the same definition as you do? And why should your definition be the definition to use (I can imagine that, when everyone handles his own definition, that there will be discussion)
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Mon, 2005-10-10, 17:24:07
I was asked many times before about my defenition of good behaviour, and I have thought about it, and I think it's not a too difficult defenition. 'Good behaviour' for me is thinking of other people first, and then thinking about yourself, trying to hurt no one, and doing things to other where you are sure of that these things make them happier. (If you don't know, ask them)

I think this is pretty clear, I think this system of judging is pretty pure, but I am also standing open for other opinions, so surprise me!  ::)
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: NijntjeRocks on Mon, 2005-10-10, 19:47:30
oh, right, I've read that ofcourse  ::)

But how far are you willing to go, with thinking about the other?

What if you are driving in a neighbourhood with narrow one-way streets. And a mother dont want you driving there because her children are playing on the streets.
Do you first think about her and her children and go on by foot or are you following your own goal bij driving trough carefully?

Ofcourse a ridiculous situation, but I hope you get the idea, what if there arent much options to think about the other first? when, on what point, do you decide to give your own goals priority above that of others?
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: PH on Mon, 2005-10-10, 19:52:59
I won't interfere in this discussion, 'cos it reaches a dead end.
But since you're Dutch you can make this quiz (it's Dutch).
It deals with this kind of questions.
It's fun to do. ;)
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Mon, 2005-10-10, 19:55:04
Link?
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: PH on Mon, 2005-10-10, 19:59:35
Oops... hehehe sorry. ::)

http://sturman.net/quiz/egoisme/index.php?site=lib


For some reason I always forget to add links in my posts.
And attachments in emails etc etc.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Vanderwoude on Mon, 2005-10-10, 20:25:16
oh, right, I've read that ofcourse  ::)

But how far are you willing to go, with thinking about the other?

What if you are driving in a neighbourhood with narrow one-way streets. And a mother dont want you driving there because her children are playing on the streets.
Do you first think about her and her children and go on by foot or are you following your own goal bij driving trough carefully?

Ofcourse a ridiculous situation, but I hope you get the idea, what if there arent much options to think about the other first? when, on what point, do you decide to give your own goals priority above that of others?

In that case this woman is damaging an amount of people. (It would be strange if she only wants you to stop). It's like a kind of math. If she can do what she wants, more people are hurt by her. If she can't, the only one whos damaged is her. (Remember that roads are ment to be used to move from one spot to another and not for children to play on)

And also if she only asks you, that wouldn't be fair to. You can't let people do everything they want, that always causes trouble, that's why there is the law.

But in most cases, you can make a really good decision
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: NijntjeRocks on Mon, 2005-10-10, 22:52:59
In that case this woman is damaging an amount of people. (It would be strange if she only wants you to stop). It's like a kind of math. If she can do what she wants, more people are hurt by her. If she can't, the only one whos damaged is her. (Remember that roads are ment to be used to move from one spot to another and not for children to play on)

And also if she only asks you, that wouldn't be fair to. You can't let people do everything they want, that always causes trouble, that's why there is the law.

But in most cases, you can make a really good decision
seems fair to me :)

(the dark part of me is thinkin' about many animal-tested medicine in order to save (more) people...  or worse: testcases at a terminal patient like "hes gonna die anyway, and maybe with this case we learn enough to save hundreds..." (http://forum.hadrian.net/images/ubb_redface.gif)
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: StarDuster on Tue, 2005-11-15, 21:44:55
I believe that a person can instinctively know when he has done something good and when he has done something bad.
The problem is some people can stop caring at some point wether they are doing right or wrong, and eventually they might as well not be able to tell one from the other.
Reviewing this, I think it's quite obvious that religion was very necessary in the humankind history.

If a (historical for the matter..) person wants to eat something and then suddenly sees someone else eating, he may well steal that other person food, he'll feel guilty about it the first time - I'm sure. But after several times he would just get used to it.

Although especially in historical times, even some people today don't understand the peril of hurting someone else. That's why a "Godly" figure is introduced and certain rules were laid. In other words, religion is actually the "law of the past". Ironically - religion itself caused (and still does) many wars and struggles between fanatics of them.

The reason that so many people became Atheists in the last century is that people reached the point of understanding as to what it costs to do evil. I believe humankind is always learning, we learned many hard lessons through all the wars and horrors of the past.

I think it's possible today for people to understand that when you betray your basic instincts as to what is right and wrong, eventually you or your later generations will always pay the price. And there is no set of rules, neither the bible or some constitution that can define what is to be truly a good person - only yourself you can find the way to become that, and I believe everyone have it in their veins, even when the situation is extremely complicated and it's hard to decide what to do - you can use your logic and instinicts, and eventually - even if you went wrong, you can take comfort in the fact that you tried to do the right thing, and that it was yet another lesson  :)



Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Tue, 2005-11-15, 22:40:21
Ironically - religion itself caused (and still does) many wars and struggles between fanatics of them.
*Eeeeeeeeh!* Wrong! People cause war and use religion as a reason. Jesus said "turn the other cheek".
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: StarDuster on Tue, 2005-11-15, 22:54:07
*Eeeeeeeeh!* Wrong! People cause war and use religion as a reason. Jesus said "turn the other cheek".

True. Of course I don't completely blame religion, people are the ones who choose war.
I just pointed out it's ironic so many killing have been done in the name of religion, and still, religion does have a part in all of the killing because religions always makes a certain group of people "higher" than others and that always causes some of these people to act aggressively eventually towards those who won't accept their religion and cease from being "sinners" ...
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Peter on Tue, 2005-11-15, 22:55:54
True. Of course I don't completely blame religion, people are the ones who choose war.
I just pointed out it's ironic so many killing have been done in the name of religion, and still, religion does have a part in all of the killing because religions always makes a certain group of people "higher" than others and that always causes some of these people to act aggressively eventually towards those who won't accept their religion and cease from being "sinners" ...

As far as I can say that, a true Christian will rather be sad than angry or even aggressive if he cannot convince someone. Which actually means that the "Christian" who raises his hand against someone else isn't really one... at least if he continues to do so.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Tue, 2005-11-15, 23:07:14
As far as I can say that, a true Christian will rather be sad than angry or even aggressive if he cannot convince someone. Which actually means that the "Christian" who raises his hand against someone else isn't really one... at least if he continues to do so.
As well as a muslim won't come after his "christian dog" neighbour with a choppingknife or something.
War is made by a very few people who are clever and charismatic enough to have followers. And most of the time they do it for more power or money and not for "their" god.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Tue, 2005-11-15, 23:30:51
Suddenly I'm listening to Universal Soldier performed by Donovan ;)

Quote
He’s 5 foot 2 and he’s 6 feet 4
He fights with missiles and with spears
He’s all of 31 and he’s only 17.
He’s been a soldier for a thousand years

He’s a catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain
A Bhuddist, and a Baptist and Jew.
And he knows he shouldn’t kill
And he knows he always will kill

You’ll for me my friend and me for you

And He’s fighting for Canada.
He’s fighting for France.
He’s fighting for the USA.
And he’s fighting for the Russians.
And he’s fighting for Japan
And he thinks we’ll put an end to war this way.

And He’s fighting for democracy,
He’s fighting for the reds
He says it’s for the peace of all.
He’s the one, who must decide,
who’s to live and who’s to die.
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He’s the one who gives his body
as a weapon of the war.
And without him all this killing can’t go on

He’s the universal soldier
And he really is the blame
His orders comes from
far away no more.

They come from him.
And you and me.
And brothers can’t you see.
This is not the way we put an end to war
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: StarDuster on Wed, 2005-11-16, 19:49:13
Nice song applemoes  ;)

I do agree that neither of the religions you mentioned are inherently aggressive - however, since they have so many followers, there would always be, as you said, clever and charismatic people who would twist religion in order to lead others to "Holy wars" etc.

I do believe that religion is dangerous because it can be interpreted in so many ways. If we take the most basic example - many religions state that followers of it are "the chosen people", and this kind of statements can easily be twisted to "other religions are inferior ... other religions have no right of existance" etc .. which ultimately leads people to violence. Of course I'm not saying I'm against people being religious in general, I just say it's sad how many human crimes were done in "the name" of religions ...

Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Thu, 2005-11-17, 00:20:34
A non believer could say that "evil" is a natural part of mankind, so war is a natural thing. So not believing could be dangerous too.

You can look at it from another side. Without beliefs, which stimulate loving and caring about your fellowman, maybe we would have a lot more wars?
You can't simply say religion is dangerous, the man (or woman) which uses religion to collect followers for his/her own ends is dangerous.

Non believers, can say that they are superior because they don't believe something that 'isn't real'.

How many crimes are made out of love, creed, hatred, jealousy etc..?

Again: Religion is just a means, used by people. It can be used in a good way and a bad way. I agree it is a matter of interpretation, but that is also the case with non believers. They also commit crimes y'know ;)
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: StarDuster on Thu, 2005-11-17, 18:40:31
A non believer could say that "evil" is a natural part of mankind, so war is a natural thing. So not believing could be dangerous too.

You can look at it from another side. Without beliefs, which stimulate loving and caring about your fellowman, maybe we would have a lot more wars?
You can't simply say religion is dangerous, the man (or woman) which uses religion to collect followers for his/her own ends is dangerous.

Non believers, can say that they are superior because they don't believe something that 'isn't real'.

How many crimes are made out of love, creed, hatred, jealousy etc..?

Again: Religion is just a means, used by people. It can be used in a good way and a bad way. I agree it is a matter of interpretation, but that is also the case with non believers. They also commit crimes y'know ;)

I agree with you regarding everything you said except I have one remark - belief doesn't have to involve being religious, I'm saying that because you responded about my statement that religions can be dangerous with saying that "Non believing is dangerous as well" ...  ;)
The fact that a person is not religious doesn't mean he doesn't have beliefs like, for example, that all people were born equal, and that it is wrong to hurt another person in any way.

I'm feeling weird having this discussion, like we just state our opinions and don't really debate anything. Well, maybe it's just because we're two people seeing things from different angles, but still not really disagreeing with each other on anything  :D
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Smegal on Thu, 2005-12-01, 15:38:20
I place my relieve into lots of things
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: NijntjeRocks on Thu, 2005-12-01, 20:39:17
I place my relieve into lots of thRings
:P
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: keyboardistmatt on Sat, 2005-12-03, 15:46:13
That's a belief?

Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Sat, 2005-12-03, 17:06:16
The world is comming to it's end, even topic's like these aren't save any more :'(
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: keyboardistmatt on Sat, 2005-12-03, 17:34:04
That's a shame.  Real shame. :(
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Smegal on Sat, 2005-12-03, 20:04:39
The only real belief i have is the fact you are born you live then you die. :-\



Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Sat, 2005-12-03, 20:08:53
Seriously Smegal, I would like it very much if this topic could stay clean of offtopic remarks.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Herben on Mon, 2005-12-19, 23:10:38
I think that is the reason why so many religious-people are killing society with terrorism :'(
I think people who use terrorism can't be religious, they think they are religious, I believe the centre of each religion is to Love people around You and Love God. So killing is not religious but terrorism. Let Bin Laden read the Koran better and if he is serious he will stop being a terrorist. Not just take one line out and abuse it to give him the right to do terrorism.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Herben on Thu, 2006-07-20, 19:04:30
That's something Vanderwoude understands.
But his problem with God is that IF there's a God wouldn't he show us that He is God?
Some say Allah is The One, others say God is The One.
If there's indeed a god, wouldn't He be God enough to show himself? Others shouldn't convince the others, if there's a god, He can do it by Himself.

I think that's a fair idea.

Therefore I don't even try to convince a muslim, but I might try to convince an atheist though.
Allah is only the arabic word for God, why did the moslems in the Netherlands translate the koran from begin to end and not the word Allah, would give much more understanding. To me the difference that I never want to become moslem is the fact that moslems see Jesus as a prophet and not anything more and put Mohammed above Jesus.
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: keyboardistmatt on Sat, 2006-08-19, 16:30:47
I recently read a book called "The Devil's Apocrypha".

It's very intriguing. :)
Title: Re: Beliefs
Post by: Herben on Sat, 2006-08-19, 16:41:51
I recently read a book called "The Devil's Apocrypha".
It's very intriguing. :)
What is happening in the book than that makes it intriguing? I never read it so I was curious.