At the risk of being the Harbinger of doom, it may be time to consider something.
Perhaps we are reaching the end for many of the bands we are used to having around in the 'Neo - Prog' world.
With the surge of downloading, and the demise of CD sales, it has become increasingly difficult for these bands to survive.
Many of them have attempted to increase their live profile in an attempt to find alternative revenue.
This has in turn lead to audiences being more choosy about their nights out, and in consequence has provided another loss for the bands.
We are so used to expecting the likes of Pallas, Pendragon, IQ, Arena, Landmarq, Galahad and many more to 'just be around'....
Just a suggestion, but perhaps we should value these bands while we still can.....
Where can I donate? ;)
On a more serious note, I think it's indeed hard for bands to get around. Just look at Threshold. Mac had to quit the band because his girlfriend had to work more when he was on tour. That means he couldn't get around with what he made for singing for Threshold. It's no wonder some bands choose to be (more) "commercial", just to make a living and the guarantee to be able to stay together as a band. And to me bands should never have to change their style just to make some more money. Although I'm sure it's a very hard decision for the bands.
It's one of the reasons I BUY my music, instead of downloading it.
Downloading... BAAAAD!!! >:(
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Fri, 2007-08-03, 12:52:42
It's one of the reasons I BUY my music, instead of downloading it.
Downloading... BAAAAD!!! >:(
Yep, I totally agree!
On the other hand, when there were still tapes (I wonder, does anybody still listen to music cassettes?), people were trading tapes with the latest "hot" bands/music, then it was trading CDs, now it's downloading... as long as you just download as a test and then go out and buy the album, I think it's OK. But of course I know that there are many people out there who download just everything they can get (music, movies etc.). :-[
Yes, this is sad...
Maybe we can donate indeed.
Marillion did that isn't it?
I think it's important - and natural for a fan - to buy the albums, dvd's and go to the gigs. One can also sell special things to fans on fan sites, in that way fans can donate.
I think using Myspace, Youtube, Wikipedia and the like to the full extent is a good thing, because in that way one can achieve max outreach.
Re people's conservatism and defensiveness, wherever I go, I talk music with people, try to identify their tastes, and I always have my Walkman with me (I'm an old guy, rem), and I ask people to just listen to this one song, you know, that style. And very often people get startled and say, hey, that's great, where can I find more of that? When I have guests at home, I always give'm a taste of my latest discoveries.
The reason why quality rock has such a small fan base isn't because people are blunt, but because they don't go out of their way to find it.
So guys, let's get some good ideas on the table. Your turn now.
Nicky.
Ooooh! I'd pay for that big hat Rob was wearing last year!! ;)
But is Arena also in it's twillight? Clive?
Quote from: PH on Fri, 2007-08-03, 13:05:16
Yes, this is sad...
Maybe we can donate indeed.
Marillion did that isn't it?
Yes they did. Before they even started on Anoraknophobia they asked their fans to pre-order the album even before they had anything written so they could pay for recordings/studio time.
A very original idea i might add. It certainly helped them financially. Somewhere Else is the first album without that pre-ordering.
I might be a good idea for Arena too but the only problem is that Marillion is more well-known than Arena is. Unfortunately i might add. That might cause some problems.
But then again, i don't know the financial capacity of Arena. Fortunately i might add. :D
Bands are able to use sites like MySpace to reach new listeners but unfortunately that doesn't pay the bills alone. Bands like Arena need their fans and the fans of prog/sympho rock to buy the actual albums. The real thing.
It frightens me to hear that bands are getting more and more in trouble because of downloading.
I'm not a hypocrite so i admit that i occasionally do that too but, and that's easy to say from this side and hard to believe from your (the person reading this message) side, i always want the real thing myself. As a collector it isn't fulfilling to have the music on a plain silver disc without the feeling that it's real. That it is made by musicians who share the same passion for music as i do and are willing to share their creativity even if that means paying a price.
I personally don't want Arena in any twilight and i'm sure a lot of other roomies will agree with that.
I value almost any prog/sympho band there is so it concerns me big time. :-\
And what does that add up to, Maddox? ;D
Nicky.
I do value my fave prog rock bands and try to support them in any way I can. For example I have a wardrobe full of Marillion t-shirts ;D and have travelled around the UK to see Pendragon. In the case of Arena I can only do this if:
1. There is a gig to go to (I couldn't make Sheffield on the last tour & was disappointed there wasn't a London or SE Engand gig). Travelling to Europe is beyond my means at the moment.
2. A CD to buy
3. Merch on sale either at a gig (see above) or via a website.
Give me opportunities to spend money & I will do so ;)
Helen xx
Arena should play the PEEL. ;D
Quote from: CompanyCroydon on Mon, 2007-08-06, 09:46:26
Arena should play the PEEL. ;D
Best idea I've heard today! fine suggestion!
The only problem for me with The Peel is getting home late at night on my own to the other side of London!
The band can be off by 11pm, So there is no problem ;D
Quote from: CompanyCroydon on Mon, 2007-08-06, 09:46:26
Arena should play the PEEL. ;D
Alright, but how about the rest of us who don't live in the UK? :(
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-08-06, 15:26:06
Alright, but how about the rest of us who don't live in the UK? :(
Come over here for the weekend, we would love to see you here!
All of us? ;D
Quote from: johninblack on Mon, 2007-08-06, 16:05:12
Come over here for the weekend, we would love to see you here!
Mmm, might do so, careful there! ;)
Oh, and I hope you're aware that you'd have to buy me lots of JD (preferably with Coke)!! ;D
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-08-06, 16:56:40
Mmm, might do so, careful there! ;)
Oh, and I hope you're aware that you'd have to buy me lots of JD (preferably with Coke)!! ;D
Not a problem!
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Mon, 2007-08-06, 16:50:27
All of us? ;D
Oh yes!
Well, thanks for the invitation! :) I'll let you know when I'm planning a UK trip - but I think there are no Arena concerts planned for the near future...?
True... there are no gigs planned. I believe there is something next year, in Holland.
Quote from: Clive on Thu, 2007-08-09, 12:55:06
True... there are no gigs planned. I believe there is something next year, in Holland.
Forget the UK then people, we can all go stay with PH, Appelmoes?? and the rest of the 'Dutchies'
That's ok, John, as long as I have you and Clive around to maintain some British civility ;D
It just seems to me that the people who should be marketing Arena aren't quite up to it. Honestly! Arena are a top prog group. Wherever people have heard their music, they get praised, often over the top. The problem is though that the only big forum where they're somewhat known is Amazon.
Now, if the people who should be making Arena known are not doing it sufficiently, maybe we in the Room ought to get some feelings of responsibility.
We have a group here who are making unbelievably good music, and they're still a niche group - after twelve years. Unbearable!
OK, guys, it's high time, who's got some creative ideas?
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Thu, 2007-08-09, 13:47:03
We have a group here who are making unbelievably good music, and they're still a niche group - after twelve years. Unbearable!
OK, guys, it's high time, who's got some creative ideas?
Nicky.
You see that very question on the IQ forum, Pendragon Forum, every forum.....unfortunately it seems 'Prog' is still a very dirty word. The answer, I don't know, wish i did! Perhaps it needs a prog band to make and be sucessfull with a couple of good 'pop' songs, of course as soon as they did that they would be accused of all sorts including selling out and betraying the genre....I don't see an answer and far far greater brains than mine have pondered this and got nowhere. Maybe it's just a case of waiting for 'Prog' to become more acceptable 'to the masses'
Quote from: johninblack on Thu, 2007-08-09, 14:11:48
Maybe it's just a case of waiting for 'Prog' to become more acceptable 'to the masses'
We might be waiting for a while before that happens... Sadly, I think most people prefer music that is easy to listen to (as otherwise you'd hear a lot more 'good' music on the radio, not that easy-listening-pop stuff). :(
Its the idiots that control the music industry. They promote the music that is going to make them a fast buck. Manufactured rubbish like boybands, r n b etc. Real talent counts for nothing nowadays and the kids grow up thinking that this stuff is real music. I cant see it getting any better either. i just have no idea what we can do about it.
It seems sad that in order to make any sort of 'living' out of prog, or any other non-mainstream genre, you have to play in as many bands as you can. As others have said, you need product to sell, whether it be a new CD, gigs or a other merchandise and having multiple outlets for that via various 'bands' and side projects is the way many choose to go.
There simply isn't the market today to support the number of bands that exist and anything new that comes along generally feeds off of the existing fan base, rarely bringing any new fans into the genre. The downloading issue isn't going to go away, it is just that when business is marginal, it is of course all the more obvious. I also wonder if the existing market is shrinking. Just ask Martin Hudson of the CRS how tough it is promoting these days.
It is even sadder when you consider that so many truly great bands struggle today to keep going, when they are creating new and relevant material, and you can have a band like Genesis who have done nothing for years, troop out on their past merits to play sell-out stadiums. I doubt that even a small %age of the folks attending their gigs even know there are bands here today still creating and performing prog.
So for me the only way out of this is to increase the size of the buying marker by connecting with that larger prog audience somehow. Not easy to do, but maybe forming some form of alliance between a number of Euro prog bands to get a sampler CD out or a common website with samples from various bands and targeting that at the 10s of thousands that paid a fortune to see Genesis, or Yes, or Rush etc etc.
Quote from: bellanova on Fri, 2007-08-10, 18:15:10
I cant see it getting any better either. i just have no idea what we can do about it.
The only thing i can think of is to let people see that there are more than what they hear on the radio.
For instance, i don't mind if someone loves R n B with the same passion as i love Prog as long he's/she's aware that there is a choice. Music doesn't begin with top 40/50/whatever songs and music doesn't end with prog either. There's a lot to explore in between.
Music is personal, you see.
Another problem is the complexity issue. People automatically associate 'complex' with 'difficult to listen to'. I once played someone some Kino, he asked about them and when I told him they were ,I think I put it as 'very Prog influenced' he said 'No, Can't be, I can listen to that'. What the hell can you do with people with that kind of belief?
I think the 'prog' tag is often the issue here John. Some bands today wield the prog tag with pride, but it often does nothing but harm. Many of the bands today are just darned good rock bands. Maybe it is time to move away from this outdated genre tag.
P.S. John I think you need to make another post, that number just looks wrong, better to get to 667 quickly ;)
Quote from: Stuart on Fri, 2007-08-10, 19:34:31
P.S. John I think you need to make another post, that number just looks wrong, better to get to 667 quickly ;)
Didn't even notice! Post 666 needs to be honoured properly.......Sing along everyone.....
Woe to You Oh Earth and Sea
for the Devil sends the beast with wrath
because he knows the time is short
Let him who hath understanding
reckon the number of the beast
for it is a human number
its number is six hundred and sixty six.
I left alone my mind was blank
I needed time to think to get the memories from my mind
What did I see can I believe that what I saw
that night was real and not just fantasy
Just what I saw in my old dreams were they
reflections of my warped mind staring back at me
Cos in my dreams it's always there the evil face that twists my mind
and brings me to despair
The night was black was no use holding back
Cos I just had to see was someone watching me
In the mist dark figures move and twist
was all this for real or just some kind of hell
666 the Number of the Beast
Hell and fire was spawned to be released
Torches blazed and sacred chants were praised
as they start to cry hands held to the sky
In the night the fires are burning bright
the ritual has begun Satan's work is done
666 the Number of the Beast
Sacrifice is going on tonight
This can't go on I must inform the law
Can this still be real or just some crazy dream
but I feel drawn towards the chanting hordes
seems to mesmerize...can't avoid their eyes
666 the Number of the Beast
666 the one for you and me
I'm coming back I will return
And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn
I have the fire I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take its course
;D
I just did (http://shattered-room.net/index.php?topic=15.new#new) *horns*. Fortunately the neighbours are on holidays. :P ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Thu, 2007-08-09, 13:47:03
OK, guys, it's high time, who's got some creative ideas?
Don't know if the idea is really new, but reading this
Quote from: Stuart on Fri, 2007-08-10, 18:46:39
It is even sadder when you consider that so many truly great bands struggle today to keep going, when they are creating new and relevant material, and you can have a band like Genesis who have done nothing for years, troop out on their past merits to play sell-out stadiums. I doubt that even a small %age of the folks attending their gigs even know there are bands here today still creating and performing prog.
So for me the only way out of this is to increase the size of the buying marker by connecting with that larger prog audience somehow. Not easy to do, but maybe forming some form of alliance between a number of Euro prog bands to get a sampler CD out or a common website with samples from various bands and targeting that at the 10s of thousands that paid a fortune to see Genesis, or Yes, or Rush etc etc.
I couldn't help thinking that maybe a tour with one of those bands - as Arena did with SAGA a few years ago - could help increase their popularity. Of course I don't know what the conditions are to be the support act of one of those bands (it wouldn't make much sense if they had to pay them to be on the tour)... but at least the audiences should be big!
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-08-10, 21:49:59
I just did (http://shattered-room.net/index.php?topic=15.new#new) *horns*. Fortunately the neighbours are on holidays. :P ;)
The Name of the Beast is: Maddox (say the neighbors, and Missus, and Nicky (when teased)) ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Stuart on Fri, 2007-08-10, 18:46:39
It seems sad that in order to make any sort of 'living' out of prog, or any other non-mainstream genre, you have to play in as many bands as you can. As others have said, you need product to sell, whether it be a new CD, gigs or a other merchandise and having multiple outlets for that via various 'bands' and side projects is the way many choose to go.
I think the 'prog' tag is often the issue here John. Some bands today wield the prog tag with pride, but it often does nothing but harm. Many of the bands today are just darned good rock bands. Maybe it is time to move away from this outdated genre tag.
I found your last two posts very discerning, Stuart. Hope to see some more posts from you. Guys, looks like we got some intelligence up there in kiltland too ;D
Nicky.
Just made me think: Dream Theater are as prog as it gets, and they're big, which is interesting here. So maybe we should try to figure out how they made it, and do the same for Arena? Certainly Arena deserve as much attention.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-08-13, 11:29:52
... Certainly Arena deserve as much attention.
I think they deserve even more attention - much more!!
Mmm... that probably means they need some Asian guy in the band... (see Dream Theater or Spock's Beard) ;)
... or maybe a woman, a strong one! What are you up to the next few years, Bluey?
Nicky.
Well, I'd LOVE to be in a band, even better if it was Arena, but I'm not sure my poor musical skills would qualify me for that. Or like I said: I CAN sing, but I'm not sure anybody wants to hear it! ;)
Of course I could always go back to my old "job" in Arena, selling CDs and T-shirts... no, wait, that wasn't really my job! ;D
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-08-13, 12:13:53
Of course I could always go back to my old "job" in Arena, selling CDs and T-shirts... no, wait, that wasn't really my job! ;D
You could wear the T-shirts (hey, any censorship around here?)
Nicky.
I AM wearing them!! Remember the black girlie Tee with the silver logo they had during the "Contagion" tour? I was the one who bought one! ;D
Er - censorship??
OK, so it's probably a see-through by now.
How come you weren't at the Baltic Prog Fest last fortnight swinging around with your T on?
Nicky.
Good question... mostly because Lithuania is not just 'round the corner, if you know what I mean... moreover I'd be anything but relaxed if I had to take my (quite new) car there... yes, I know, that would rather be Poland, but still... next time just give me a lift and I'll be there! ;D
I promise I'll be at one of the next Arena gigs in Germany - remind me to wear the t-shirt!
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-08-13, 12:27:24
... moreover I'd be anything but relaxed if I had to take my (quite new) car there...
We want you everything but relaxed, Bluey, for you to get us A-fans.
> ... next time just give me a lift and I'll be there! ;D
Cap's the lift guy. So once again, I guess I got the jobs distributed.
Hey, Bluey, you're competing with DT here. Who's gonno win?
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-08-13, 12:33:39
We want you everything but relaxed, for you to get us A-fans.
Well, I'm working on that... in September I'll be in Berlin and will also be seeing my longtime pen pal who - can you belive it! - isn't an Arena fan yet... I'll do my best to change that soon! I'll make him listen to all their CDs AND watch the live DVD and although he's more into the hard stuff (i. e. Heavy Metal) I bet he will like it! (Would be better for him. ;))
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-08-13, 12:33:39
Cap's the lift guy.
I know, and he doesn't live too far from my place, too! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-08-13, 12:33:39
Hey, Bluey, you're competing with DT here. Who's gonno win?
What,
I am competing with them?!
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-08-13, 12:40:09
... and will also be seeing my longtime pen pal who - can you believe it! - isn't an Arena fan yet...
Hey, Bluey, take Tom instead! He's a bigtime Arena-fan, and you can keep him in your pen.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-08-13, 12:54:16
Hey, Bluey, take Tom instead! He's a bigtime Arena-fan, and you can keep him in your pen.
May have to anyway - my pen pal already has got a girlfriend. ;)
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-08-13, 12:56:40
May have to anyway - my pen pal already has got a girlfriend. ;)
Okay, where can I sign up?;)
Sign up for what - boyfriend, pen pal or just pen? ;)
well we do seem to have strayed off topic a little....
Arena doesn't plan on entering that Twilight Zone quite yet... if we can write this next album, I reckon we have a little more time left. :)
Hopefully we will play a few more gigs next year to keep things ticking along until the next release...
Quote from: Clive on Tue, 2007-08-14, 12:59:58
well we do seem to have strayed off topic a little....
Ooops... sorry! :-[
Quote from: Clive on Tue, 2007-08-14, 12:59:58
Hopefully we will play a few more gigs next year to keep things ticking along until the next release...
YES!!! More gigs! Please!!
Now that you mention it - I hardly dare to ask - how's the writing for the new album coming along?
Quote from: Clive on Tue, 2007-08-14, 12:59:58
well we do seem to have strayed off topic a little....
Arena doesn't plan on entering that Twilight Zone quite yet... if we can write this next album, I reckon we have a little more time left. :)
Hopefully we will play a few more gigs next year to keep things ticking along until the next release...
That's a good reason to say
YAY! ;D
Ps> sorry for the off-topicness. :D
Quote from: Nicky007
I found your last two posts very discerning, Stuart. Hope to see some more posts from you. Guys, looks like we got some intelligence up there in kiltland too ;D
Nicky.
Thanks for the comments Nicky. I like to think we have a few folks with a semblance of intelligence up here in kilt land ;) Of course Alex Salmond doesn't count :P
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-08-14, 13:15:43
Ooops... sorry! :-[
Quote from: maddox on Tue, 2007-08-14, 20:21:40
Ps> sorry for the off-topicness. :D
Yeah, let's have some discipline here!
When Cap's away,
I keep the discipline.
Nicky.
Quote from: Stuart on Tue, 2007-08-14, 23:54:35
Of course Alex Salmond doesn't count :P
He seems quite ok, considering that he's a politician :D
What do you think about Pallas, Stuart? and what other great groups d'you have up there?
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-08-15, 07:54:36
Yeah, let's have some discipline here!
When Cap's away, I keep the discipline.
Nicky.
I think a ' ::)' is in order right now. ;D
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-08-15, 07:54:36
When Cap's away, I keep the discipline.
OMG...
Come on dutchies, let's hide in the dutch corner of this forum 8)
Hey, you guys are too much. How about some respect for the old and wise ;D
Nicky.
Please remind me - what was this 'respect' thing again? ;)
At the risk of a backlash, one way for Arena to raise some cash right now would be to release the (very) long awaited Contagion Max.
OK I've said it now . . .
::)
A good thing you mention it, Stuart. :) I'd buy one!!
Contagion Max release now, or else!!!
;)
I'd pay double for a mixed version of the Max... I've made one for myself, but if Clive will mix one it would be sooooo much better..
Read that Clive? ;)
Me thinks that Contagion Max will be an item worth waiting for. *horns*
But not too long i hope. ;D
But haven't we been waiting for years?!
Okay, let me try to get back on topic.
I think it's not only downloading that counts for falling sales. It's a shift in preferences as well. Old prog-fans have families to take care of (or other business) and younger people tend to either have different interests (gaming) or other musical tastes.
Some acts are still doing very well, but they are more in the gothic/metal scene. One of them I like is Within Temptation (check their last one out!), but Ayreon and spin-offs are doing relatively well. Also Porcupine Tree manages to do well (they are playing Broadway in New York, for example and I saw their advert BIG on Madison Square Garden this month).
Marillion I consider a different chapter as they were BIG in the 80's and will always have more access to media than IQ or Arena, based on that. But Marillion did something smart: they used their core following to get a hit in the charts (it worked, they had a top-10 hit only few years ago, here in Holland and they were on top-of-the-pops again).
I alwayst thought that InsideOut was doing a great job in Germany, marketing-wise and I still think it's sad that most british prog-acts are struggling so much on their own. I think when the bands Clive mentioned would join forces, they would be able to make far better deals marketing-wise, but also towards merchandise, gear, venues, they would be a much stronger force.
So, my suggestions:
- support a big act (a tour with Yes or Genesis?)
- work together with all great prog acts in the UK
- release live-albums of every tour
- write a gothic album
- drop any male singer above 30... [sorry, wasn't being serious on this]
Fine contribution to the debate, JJ.
I would like to stress the importance of animating the closest people, i.e. friends, colleagues, family.
I mentioned earlier that I use any opportunity to play some music that links to the person's current taste and preferably extends it.
Another example is that I have a few friends and acquaintances who are as adventurous as I consider myself. Every so often I make a CD with some of the newest pearls from my collection (Pallas' Last Angel and Ghostdancers will be on the next). These friends are always very appreciative, and they actually play the stuff (which everyone else pretty much doesnt).
In these ways, and several others, each of us can make our own small contributions to spreading the gospel of prog.
Nicky.
Another idea... I remember there were various requests for Arena t-shirts on this forum. My brother showed me his band's online merchandise shop at Spreadshirt (I think that was the name... not sure right now) - the idea is easy: the band can upload some artwork and people can order t-shirts, sweatshirts and other stuff at a very reasonable price (e. g. I'm thinking about getting me a MinDead girlie tee for less than 20 Euros). I'll suggest that to the Arena guys and maybe - if I offer to run that online shop myself and they have no work with it? ;D- they think it's a good idea...
Listening to The Last Angel for the umpteenth time today (man, what a piece), it strikes me that we're up against very hard odds, as one of the "problems" with prog, as seen from the mainstream, is that prog is veeery serious, indeed, one could say occasionally deadly serious, the themes being doom, death, redemption (words that occur surprisingly often in prog), the last days, angels turning their backs to mankind, you know, all this stuff. It's not surprising that roomies are avid Bible readers and run around in churches.
On the other hand, as I mentioned earlier, mainstream society is about escapism, avoiding all this serious, heavy stuff; the "come on, let's have fun" kinda jive. Most people feel that if they do their job well and take care of their kids, their quota of seriousness is fulfilled at the end of the day. So leisure is food, drink, sports, talkin bout fun things - and happy-go-lucky music. You know, Arena and Pallas, "gosh, they make me feel so sad" (as Paco already noted).
Am I wrong here?
Nicky.
You're right Nicky.
And some people (like us) are happy to be sad...
At least while listening to music.
Well, I am definitely NOT happy to be sad, but I still like Arena's music very much!!
But you're right, Prog usually isn't music to play in the background while doing other things (at least not when listening to the songs for the first time), but music that demands - sometimes very careful - listening, and I know that many people don't want music to be like that. For the majority music just some background noise... >:(
So how would you explain the revival of darker kinds of music like gothic then...?
I think bands like Evanescence, Within Temptation and Nightwish aren't exactly a happy party-people band either....
Quote from: JJ II on Tue, 2007-08-28, 10:36:44
So how would you explain the revival of darker kinds of music like gothic then...?
I think bands like Evanescence, Within Temptation and Nightwish aren't exactly a happy party-people band either....
Well, they're a lot easier than Arena and Dream Theater, not to mention Zero Hour and Spiral Architect, JJ.
Re Dream Theater, I think that what has helped them a lot is that their earliest albums are relatively accessible. If they had entered the market with stuff like Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos, they would have remained as unknown as Arena.
All the contemporary goth music that I've heard is run-of-the-mill, and it doesn't make it more prog or indie that they have a female singer with a great voice fronting.
Nicky.
Agreed... but the goth and metal scene isn't really a 'happy' kind of music either, so that argument I don't count.
Good looking girls up front do help, I'm convinced.
Quote from: JJ II on Tue, 2007-08-28, 11:13:45
Agreed... but the goth and metal scene isn't really a 'happy' kind of music either, so that argument I don't count.
OK, JJ, I'll buy that one, but still goth as we know it today enters quite easily and creates a mood that is rather pleasant, not sad, in any case.
> Good looking girls up front do help, I'm convinced.
Obviously they don't even need be that goodlooking, as goth attracts a lot of women, but they have to be good singers, as that counts.
Nicky.
Sorry guys but id rather watch Rob or JM any day!!!
Quote from: JJ II on Tue, 2007-08-28, 10:36:44
So how would you explain the revival of darker kinds of music like gothic then...?
I think bands like Evanescence, Within Temptation and Nightwish aren't exactly a happy party-people band either....
Well, I think that's rather a trend than anything else. Remember, a few years ago Metallica was THE band to listen to - they were on every radio station, their songs went in the charts - and where are they now?
Of course having a girl singer may help... ;) And rather good-looking guys like Ville Valo are a good reason to buy a H.I.M. CD, don't you think? ;) ;D
But seriously, if I bought my CDs because of the LOOKS of people that make the music... there'd be something wrong!
-> Metallica: where they are? still selling out huge venues! (not stadiums perhaps, but still)
-> Looks: alsways have been important and I do think that many bands have become big because of the looks (Duran Duran, U2)
-> Gothic being a 'trend', well of course, you have to be in a trend to be succesful. Yes was in the 70's (CTTE went to #1 in Holland!!), Genesis in the 80's, Nirvana in the 90's and Keane in the 2000's.
If Muse, Porcupine Tree and Within Temptation can do well, other bands can. But yes, marketing is an important thing. For example, many times when I some of that alternative, indie rock on the radio, I keep thinking 'man, if this is a hit, why isn't The Urbane? They're at least as good as this. I know the answer! Marketing Power!
I like the dialog that you're conducting with yourself, JJ.
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-08-28, 11:49:36
But seriously, if I bought my CDs because of the LOOKS of people that make the music... there'd be something wrong!
If we had Clive's snout on the cover of the next A-CD, it would sell 542 copies (well, minus one, because Paco never buys A-CD's ;D ).
Nicky.
Quote from: JJ II on Tue, 2007-08-28, 12:01:40
-> Metallica: where they are? still selling out huge venues! (not stadiums perhaps, but still)
Of course they are, but you miss my point - they're no longer the whole world's favourite band, it's no longer 'hip' to be a Metallica fan - at least not in the way it was in the 90s!
Quote from: JJ II on Tue, 2007-08-28, 12:01:40
-> Looks: alsways have been important and I do think that many bands have become big because of the looks (Duran Duran, U2)
So? Rob is quite nice to look at! Spread that word among the chart-music-girlies... ;)
Quote from: JJ II on Tue, 2007-08-28, 12:01:40
If Muse, Porcupine Tree and Within Temptation can do well, other bands can. But yes, marketing is an important thing. For example, many times when I some of that alternative, indie rock on the radio, I keep thinking 'man, if this is a hit, why isn't The Urbane? They're at least as good as this. I know the answer! Marketing Power!
Hmmm... and the consequence is...?
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-08-28, 12:57:26Of course they are, but you miss my point - they're no longer the whole world's favourite band, it's no longer 'hip' to be a Metallica fan - at least not in the way it was in the 90s!
But that's not what we're aiming at, or what? We don't need Arena to be hip or popular by everyone. But just like Metallica nowadays, Arena should still sell out huge venues. Like Porcupine Tree. Porcupine Tree isn't as hip as Metallica once was, but it's popular enough to go well. That's how Arena should be too.
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-08-28, 12:57:26So? Rob is quite nice to look at! Spread that word among the chart-music-girlies... ;)
Might be, but not good enough for the mass, I think... Too bad that society is all about the looks and not the kindness from within...
QuoteOf course they are, but you miss my point - they're no longer the whole world's favourite band, it's no longer 'hip' to be a Metallica fan - at least not in the way it was in the 90s!
No, but, like Marillion... they have a name now and will be recognised by anyone even if no-one had ever bought their last 4 albums...
I think the only realistic comparison to Arena is Porcupine Tree, cause the did not have a hit, don't have a charismatic female front-woman. And yet, they're doing increasingly better all the time.
Whatever comparison within the neo-prog scene: they all have the same problem.
QuoteRob is quite nice to look at!
Yeah, but the music is probably not girl-friendly enough. So: either you make girls music (whatever that is) and have a handsome frontman ór you maken tough, intricate mans music and have a handsome girl up front.
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-08-28, 13:15:34
But that's not what we're aiming at, or what? We don't need Arena to be hip or popular by everyone. But just like Metallica nowadays, Arena should still sell out huge venues. Like Porcupine Tree. Porcupine Tree isn't as hip as Metallica once was, but it's popular enough to go well. That's how Arena should be too.
Quote from: JJ II on Tue, 2007-08-28, 13:25:04
I think the only realistic comparison to Arena is Porcupine Tree, cause the did not have a hit, don't have a charismatic female front-woman. And yet, they're doing increasingly better all the time.
So what did Porcupine Tree do differently?!
I don't know, but for some reason they manage to get bigger audiences every year, an interesting deal in the states, playing on Broadway, etc.
Maybe it's the right type of music for the moment, maybe it's just a good marketing deal.
One thing I know for sure: it's not their happy sound, nor their charismatic goodlooking frontman. So, there must be hope for Arena (who have a great frontman!)
So what was done differently in the 70s to make prog as big as it was? Its too much to do with the music biz moguls like Simon Cowell. I mean does he even know how good prog is?
As for me saying about Robs looks, i only meant that i dont really like any female singers. I wouldnt want to change Arenas style for the world. Some of us "girlies" like that kind of music. It stirs the soul and touches your heart!
Quote from: bellanova on Tue, 2007-08-28, 14:52:05
I wouldnt want to change Arenas style for the world. Some of us "girlies" like that kind of music. It stirs the soul and touches your heart!
Amen, sister! :D
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-08-28, 13:15:34
We don't need Arena to be hip or popular by everyone.
No?!?! But I thought that was what this thread is all about! ;)
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-08-28, 13:34:42
So what did Porcupine Tree do differently?!
The answer to that question lies in the fact that PT has a bigger record-company behind them. They are well better supported by their record company because of more funds.
The more money they bring in, the easier it gets to reach more new listeners. You then get more adverts in various magazines, better support with leaflets etc.
For instance and this is just a tiny example, when i visited the Marillion gig on the 16th of May this year, there were a few guys who gave leaflets of a Fish-gig later this year to the audience.
That usually is done by the so called street-teams by the way.
A better designed MySpace-site would do the trick too. :-\
It's not necessary to be hip. I want Arena just like with Porcupine Tree. Porcupine Tree isn't hip or popular by the mass either, but they sell bigger venues than Arena.
And, I'm a boy of course, but I think Steven Wilson is quite the charismatic goodlooking frontman.
And don't forget that they have songs that are very radiofriendly (Lazarus, Trains, Shesmovedon, Piano Lessons etc etc)
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-08-28, 12:57:26
So? Rob is quite nice to look at! Spread that word among the chart-music-girlies... ;)
Bluey, you do have a very special taste. I consider Rob to be a great singer with a lot of charisma, but good looks :o :o :o
If Rob became the singer of Duran Duran, people would think that they'd turned up at a burlesque.
Nicky.
If Arena made me the frontman, Arena would be a lot more popular.
JJ II has it right on the money (as Mr Cowell would say), it's purely down to marketing.
You can have the best product in the world, but marketing is what gets in into peoples hands.
Popular music is only popular because it is marketed at the target audience relentlessly through every possible media.
Prog Rock had some of that in the 70s with EMI devoting a whole label to the genre (Harvest).
Take a new band releasing on Inside Out for example. They get the benefit of their well oiled marketing engine and contacts. Releasing on that label means you will end up doing loads of phone interviews with people from all over the world, as well as direct press interviews and even some radio slots. It is a front end intensive, but once that's done, there is little else other than the inserts in Inside Out CDs as they need to move onto the next release.
I've said it, and a few others have said similar things here, having some form of co-operative of prog bands would help spread the word to a wider audience, and spread the cost of the marketing effort.
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-08-28, 13:15:34
We don't need Arena to be hip or popular by everyone.
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-08-28, 17:03:11
No?!?! But I thought that was what this thread is all about! ;)
You know, quite honestly, I consider Arena music to be classic in the same sense as Beethoven's symphonies are, and Beatles and Pink Floyd, and Shakespeare's Hamlet, for that matter. What qualifies something as classic is that it is so rich that once the spark is there, one can return to it again and again and always find something refreshing in it.
Further, I believe that there is a sense of beauty and depth in every single person; it can be more or less accessible. So I'm certain that Arena eventually will touch the hearts and minds of millions, as Beethoven and the others do.
Nicky.
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-08-28, 22:56:09
If Arena made me the frontman, Arena would be a lot more popular.
... with Pusle and her ilk, as they're hot on caterwauling ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-08-28, 22:47:22
Bluey, you do have a very special taste. I consider Rob to be a great singer with a lot of charisma, but good looks :o :o :o
If Rob became the singer of Duran Duran, people would think that they'd turned up at a burlesque.
Nicky.
Nicky, if you knew my REAL taste you'd be shocked...! ;D
QuoteSteven Wilson is quite the charismatic goodlooking frontman.
Sorry, are we talking about the same non-talkative, not-communicating, depressive looking, foot-staring guitarplayer ??
Quotehaving some form of co-operative of prog bands would help spread the word to a wider audience, and spread the cost of the marketing effort.
There must me some reason they don't. I think it's 'the part of the profit' the got, but still, a smaller part of a bigger profit could be interesting. I do believe a cooperation between bands like IQ, Pendragon, Jadis, It Bites, Landmarq, and so on, could really work. Not just for the marketing, but for other things as well.
Quote from: JJ II on Wed, 2007-08-29, 09:30:22
Sorry, are we talking about the same non-talkative, not-communicating, depressive looking, foot-staring guitarplayer ??
Probably not... if your experience is so different! ;)
Well Steven Wilson does it for me! lol
Quote from: bluepony on Wed, 2007-08-29, 08:33:37
Nicky, if you knew my REAL taste you'd be shocked...! ;D
Osama bin Laden, of course. Why didn't I come onto that earlier. That's why he has four wives.
He's into death metal for REAL.
Nicky.
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-08-28, 19:50:22
And don't forget that they have songs that are very radiofriendly (Lazarus, Trains, Shesmovedon, Piano Lessons etc etc)
You know, what makes the whole thing really incomprehensible is that Arena actually do have some radiofriendly songs. Particularly Witch Hunt is hot, no matter how you look at it. If anyone made the effort to broadcast WH through MTV, Arena would be an overnight sensation. However, I'm not sure that the A-guys would want that, nice down-to-earth people as they are.
I have a strong feeling that Clive & Co. want Arena to be a "seek, and you shall find" sort of thing (Matthew 7,7, in case you didn't know). Aint I right about that?
Man, I really got into JJ's autodialog style here ;D
Nicky.
QuoteAnd don't forget that they have songs that are very radiofriendly (Lazarus, Trains, Shesmovedon, Piano Lessons etc etc)
Maybe they are, but they've never been played, so that hasn't done the track. Even stranger: they're taking of right now, after a few quite inaccessible albums.
QuoteMan, I really got into JJ's autodialog style here
sorry?
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-08-29, 13:16:19
Osama bin Laden, of course.
Of course, who else!! You know me so well... ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-08-29, 13:44:56
I have a strong feeling that Clive & Co. want Arena to be a "seek, and you shall find" sort of thing (Matthew 7,7, in case you didn't know). Aint I right about that?
I'm not so sure... but maybe I'm wrong?
Well Clive (who started this thread) and others... I just accidentally stumbled upon this nice rant by a certain mr.Godfrey....
QuoteI'm probably going to get shouted at a lot for this one...but.
There's been a lot of talk lately about music piracy. The message is that if it doesn't stop, a lot of progressive rock bands will go out of business and the genre will die out forever.
My gut feeling is – and?
There's been some speculation that unless piracy is stopped, all new music will die. Oh, do fuck off...
If anything, it'll grow beyond anything we can comprehend at the moment. I'll bet anybody £1,000,000 that new songs will be released for public consumption every week for the rest of my life and my son's and my grandchildren's life too. Who cares if we pay for it. Most people make music for the fun of it, perhaps the future of music is with the gifted amateurs. Maybe that's precisely what music needs - a bit of a clear out from all of us in the moaning old boys brigade that should have retired years ago.
Music and media piracy has been going on since the beginning of time. If any of you have been to Thailand, you'll know what I mean. You can buy DVDs of films before they're even on general release. When I was there, you could even buy a copy of "Raiders Of The Lost Ark 4″. I wish I had now in hindsight...
Does anyone remember the "Home taping is killing music" campaign in the 80's? Oh, how we all frowned and looked concerned. This'll be the death of music we cried. Well, if I remember rightly, the world didn't end did it? We, the record buying public, still managed to make multi multi millionaires out of Sting and U2 and The Police and Michael Jackson and Bruce Springsteen and Dire Straits and Prince and Madonna and Genesis and Elton John and Enya and then later, Britney Spears and Take That and The Spice Girls and Christina Aguilera and Eminem and Robbie Williams and Dido and and... do you need me to go on?
If the small acts are struggling, it's because they're small. You can't have the big without the small. That's life. Sounds really harsh I know, but not everyone can start a band and expect to end up being Bono. Maybe your Chi was out of alignment on the day you started your band. We can't all be rock stars. Shit happens. Deal with it.
If I may be so bold, perhaps sales of prog rock are down because, with a few notable exceptions, these days it's mostly self referential, smug, cliché ridden arse gravy. Milliontown only sold about 9,000 copies I think, but you don't hear me complaining about it. Frankly, I'm not surprised it sold that badly, it's got a 26 minute long song about zombies on it for fuck's sake. Who are we kidding here?? Prog's time was the 70's, just as psychadelia was a product of the 60's. It's simply not relevant anymore. You don't hear "In The Mood" on XFM do you? Or The 5th Dimension? We don't hear them on contemporary radio anymore than we should expect to hear "Supper's Ready" on the Chris Moyles show tomorrow morning.
We are a novelty sideshow. Up there with people who do classic battle re-enactments on Sundays or who think they're actually living in The Matrix. And those of us who can accept that with a wry smile and still enjoy the ride are all the better for it. We know who we are and are confident enough to be happy with that. But those of us who take it too seriously and think such a tiny corner of the universe actually has the capaicty to afford us some kind of living are going to lose. It's a case of evolve or die ufortunately. A good case in point would be Marillion. I totally admire what they've done to combat adversity and it's great to see a band like that bend the rules to their own advantage. If only other bands would take some time to be inspired by that rather than bitter about the unfairness of it all, they might see a similar reversal of fortune occur slightly nearer to home.
Musicians making records are no different from chefs making food. If you're still serving up the same food you were making in 1975, no wonder your restaurant is in the shit compared to the nearby Gordon Ramsay establishment... Yes, piracy is bad and it is having a big effect on sales, but prog's hardly doing itself any favours with all this mellotron and widdly widdly shit is it? I mean we're hardly selling ourselves as a vibrant, must-have music genre worth fighting for are we? A few well-meant MySpace domains isn't going to make it go away. The people that download aren't doing it maliciously, they're simply taking the path of least resistance to obtain the things they want. That's been the way of things since we started walking on two legs and probably even before that actually.
Frost is my hobby. My Grand Designs project. My Harley Davidson during my mid life crisis. It's a thing to be enjoyed for what it is. If every single person downloads the new album, to be honest, I won't really care. I will still probably make another one. I'm not doing this to make a living. I already have 2 other livings and that's my point. I've had to evolve both as a musician and as a businessman. I stopped doing music entirely in my early 20's to go and work in radio because I could clearly see that my stars were not in alignment to be a global superstar. Therefore I stopped pissing about with it and got on with something that could sustain me financially and be creatively fulfilling at the same time. I have no sympathy for those that "hung in there" and failed because you make your own luck when things get shitty. It was largely fluke that I got into songwriting in my 30's and even now, I fully expect it to stop tomorrow. I'd be an arsehole if I didn't. That's why my main line of work is actually writing music for TV and Radio. You've gotta have a Plan B.
For all I know, Inside Out could ring me tomorrow having read this and drop me on the spot for being an opinionated twat. So be it. That's their prerogative. I hope that's not the case obviously, but again, I have a plan B...
The music industry is a cold, hard, financially motivated place to spend your time. And this isn't a new thing, this has been the way of things since popular music came into being. Please don't kid yourselves that this is a bunch of caring, sharing businessmen who want to see you express yourself as an artist. Elvis took 50% of the writer's share when he covered their songs. That was the deal. A well know female pop star even now buys you off of the songs you write with her so that it's credited entirely to her on the sleeve notes. TV companies take half your publishing when you write music for them. With no negotiation. You have to give half your money away just to be involved. There's no point rolling your eyeballs and tutting because if you can't hack it, I and many others like me will happily take your place in the queue. That's the reality of it. Evolve or die.
The high street in my village is dying on it's arse at the moment and everyone is up in arms about it, but again, I find it hard to be sympathetic. How can the village bookshop compete with Amazon? It can't so why pretend that it can. The village ironmonger (outgoing) has even gone to the papers about his plight, but everytime you go in there and ask for something, he tuts and says he has to order it in. In the case of the axe I bought from him that was 2 fucking weeks! I could have driven to B and Q and sorted it out in 15 minutes, but I hung in there as a show of support. Fat lot of difference that made.
When Wife went in for a replacement part for the strimmer, he denied the part she was after even existed and gave her proper 1940's style sexist rhetoric about knowing what you're talking about before you go in asking for things.
Sorry, but that's not how people do business in the 21st century. I don't want that shit in my village, I want a great delicatessen, a wine merchant, a dry cleaners, a branch of my bank, a fishmonger, a butcher and a shop where I can buy baked beans and bog roll at 11pm. I won't miss the 4 estate agents, the rubbish Ironmonger, the electricians that's only open 3 days a week and the 2 hairdressers frankly. See ya.
The greengrocer, however, is branching out into deli stuff and locally made and grown food. Really good Sussex made products. You can buy stuff in there that you can't get in Sainsbury's and they're doing really well. And that's my point, there ARE ways to make a living as an artisan in these ghastly times, you just have to be prepared to be a bit more lateral with your definition of what it is that you do. Again, I present them Marillion boys as testament to that. And UB40 for that matter. And Enter Shikari (initally).
And so if piracy does eventually kill all music, and we lose prog as it stands now, nobody will mourn us, they'll just move onto Playstation games or whatever else costs "too much". Then we'll just start again.
And by the way, I buy ALL my downloaded music, my CD's, my sample CD's, my music software and all my plug-ins. I have the reciepts, the free updates and online support to prove it. I believe it's good Karma. And it's all tax deductible.
But I suspect I'm in the minority of the musicians reading this who do.
So who's the fool? Me or you?
QED.
source: http://birdiesong.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/jem-godfrey-cake-or-death/ (http://birdiesong.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/jem-godfrey-cake-or-death/)
Any reactions?
I love his rants.
How's that for a reaction?
JG made a helluva lot of money producing bullshit pop. So it's easy enough for him to talk about having a Plan B. He's not the one who has to go to the local stores with his hat in his hand and beg for a job to pay his bills. He has a name that spells producing any other megabuck bullshit pop album. Not everybody, e.g. not Clive, is willing to compromise himself like that.
On the other hand, while Frost* is a decent effort, Clive's musical talent towers lightyears above Jem's.
I suggest that Jem use some of his business talent to help pay Clive's bills.
It all boils down to the age-old maxim that real artists remain poor, as only a small section of any population wants quality culture.
As you can see, JG is not the only one who can rant.
Nicky.
Totally agree Nicky. Real talent counts for nothing nowadays although bands like Porcupine Tree and Dream Theater are doing OK. I mean DT are even doing Wembley in the autumn where all the big names play.
I think we need a big prog festival where all prog fans can get together and hear each others bands and then increase their following. Thats what i did. Heard one band and then looked outwards. Im sure alot of youngsters if they listened to prog might like it. Or are we really that weird.
As for Jem, i loved Frost* but its not his real job! If thats all he did he'd have more reason to rant, but whats he doing about it.....just churning out more rubbish to line his own pockets which i understand but it doesnt help the situation as a whole!!
Quote from: bellanova on Fri, 2007-08-31, 19:02:45
Im sure alot of youngsters if they listened to prog might like it. Or are we really that weird.
I'm young
and I like prog. How's that for a start!? :P
However, I'm not
that weird (or am I? ???)...
Tom
Quote from: bellanova on Fri, 2007-08-31, 19:02:45
I think we need a big prog festival where all prog fans can get together and hear each others bands and then increase their following.
That's what the Headway Festival was about, this Easter in Amstelveen. It was great, man. The bands were Redemption, Zero Hour, Sun Caged, and several other less known excellent bands. They all played their heads off, knowing that the audience were real proggies. Problem, however: We were only 80-150 guests. And Headway wasn't new, this was the fifth annual Festival in a row.
Nicky.
Well.... I wouldnt expect anything else in a JG rant...;)
He's got a good point though.... music is an evolution.... things will change, and thats the way it goes...
Maybe that also spells the end for Bagpipes and Fender Rhodes Pianos .... some pet dislikes there (sorry if you like them!)...
On a personal note its not the 'prog music' that actually earns me much money.... I do it because I choose to: for me, it wasnt a quick experient in 'button pushing'.
I've no doubt 'progressive/symphonic rock' will survive.... my original point was to suggest we make the most of certain bands while they are around.
Bands that have managed to exist for more than, say... a year perhaps?......
Okay, Clive,... I think you cán make more money out of us. The small following of loyal fas will be ready to take out their purses for say... contagion - the max, or a live album or a good shirts.
Another example: when I was at the Threshold-gig, I planned to buy several things, among them the new Damian album, some old Threshold albums, atc. But they didn't have any, because of several reasons (troubles with delivery, record companies, etc.).
I suggested to Karl that the really should release a live album (or even better, a DVD) with Damian! He was not sure if they could work things out, because of the copyrights, etc.
That's why I said: why don't you guys join forces? If there was a company that would combine It Bites, Theshold, Landmarq, Pendragon, Jadis, etc, etc. They could do combined adverts in big magazines, they could create good BIG online prog-shop (where I would buy more than I normally do, like "oh, I only wanted to buy the new Damian, but now I see the new It Bites has been released as well").
At this very moment everybody is struggling with websites, getting tours organised (with sometimes lousy supports!), getting shirts printed in a good design and quality. Every band is trying to invent the same old wheel again over and over again. So much energy lost, so much lack of power as the result. Some of the aforementioned bands have signed other label, that had the facilities to create combined forces, but as a result lots of money has remained in Germany ;)
Contagion - the Max - YES!!!!! I haven't given up hope that it may happen in this life... ;D
I'd go for that too now although i have all the extra songs in the right places on my media player. Cant listen though because my speakers dont work anymore!
I made two CDs with the songs in the right order and keep playing them over and over, but it sure would be nice to get the 'real thing'... maybe a limited collector's edition... Could anybody tell that I'm desperately trying to spend some money here? ;D
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-04, 16:09:29
Could anybody tell that I'm desperately trying to spend some money here? ;D
Really? But then we'll all grab The Max the moment it's released.....Wouldn't we?
Quote from: johninblack on Tue, 2007-09-04, 16:49:55
... we'll all grab The Max the moment it's released.....Wouldn't we?
Hope so!! :D
Of course we'll do!
I'll buy it right from the release!
And if Clive and Co will rerelease the Shadowland albums, I'll be happy to buy them! As it seems that they're out of print... :(
I have all three Shadowland albums, Paco. :)
(Sorry, I just HAD to say it.)
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-04, 17:04:47I have all three Shadowland albums, Paco. :)
(Sorry, I just HAD to say it.)
AAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH
I'll pay you a visit when you're off in your car listening to Ayreon.
Well, getting personal and lashing out at another artist with no real information to back up your comments 'aint going to solve anything, and I'm sure certainly wasn't the reason Clive started this thread.
If anyone wants to rant at JG, head over to the FROST* forum and do it there where at least he has the chance to reply.
OK back to what Clive started this thread for. We've all (mostly) got spare cash and more than willing to pass it Arena's way, just give us the goods to buy with it.
Quote from: Stuart on Tue, 2007-09-04, 21:34:20Well, getting personal and lashing out at another artist with no real information to back up your comments 'aint going to solve anything, and I'm sure certainly wasn't the reason Clive started this thread.
Don't take it that way, we're not angry or anything! :)
Besides, with all respect, what's Jem doing?
You often have to take Jem's rants with a piece of salt. (or is that a typical Dutch saying?)
Quote from: Stuart on Tue, 2007-09-04, 21:34:20If anyone wants to rant at JG, head over to the FROST* forum and do it there where at least he has the chance to reply.
No need to I think. Prog concerns all of us.
Quote from: Stuart on Tue, 2007-09-04, 21:34:20
If anyone wants to rant at JG, head over to the FROST* forum and do it there where at least he has the chance to reply.
It's HERE (http://frost.informe.com/index.php) Jem's always up for an exchange of views
On the subject matter (sort of):
John Wesley (known as the Porcupine Tree additional guitarist, backing vocalist and singer-songwriter) is giving away most of his discography as a free download.
http://www.myspace.com/johnwesleymusic
(look on the left)
I'd say check it out, it's quite interesting music.
But is this the way to do it??
I don't think so, actually, but who knows...
Quote from: PH
You often have to take Jem's rants with a piece of salt. (or is that a typical Dutch saying?)
Yes 'pinch' of salt translates well, and anyone who knows Jem knows he never takes himself too seriously anyway.
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-09-04, 17:06:06
AAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH
I'll pay you a visit when you're off in your car listening to Ayreon.
Feel free to visit me anytime! :)
Paco's movin into shadowland for real here.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-09-05, 10:50:06
Paco's movin into shadowland for real here.
Why, because he tells us where to download free music? ;)
Just an idea to throw out at my fellow proggers here!
When Arena release the next album, what if we all bought TWO copies, I'm sure most of us could manage that!
One CD for your player, and a nice shiny unopened one just in case the other one gets f*cked up somehow!
This would obviously double the amount of sales for Arena! ( and also for us to do the same for other bands like Pendragon IQ etc....These guys don't release albums every 6 months or even every year so it shouldn't't be a strain on the pocket )
I for one would be willing to do this - think about it, just an extra 12 quid or so and it will be helping to keep the bands we love alive!
You could even make a point of buying the extra CD as a gift for a mate - It's good to give yeah?
As for the whole downloading issue, the following is a copy and paste job of my views on the IQ forum ( For what it's worth )
I have come into this discussion late but have been viewing this subject with interest!
For a start the home taping thing from the 80's is an entirely different matter altogether, as there was no internet and therefore no way to get free music en masse.
You had to physically know somebody with the original vinyl/tape to be able to get a copy - This i admit i used to do myself, but there wasn't an endless stream of people with music for me to tape off, and how many of us would be honest enough to say that we were satisfied with a copy of an album that we got hold of via Joe who got a copy via Jim who got a copy via Jane?
Smaller bands like the ones some of you purport to love ( IQ ) still have day jobs and the running of a cottage industry alongside that is NOT easy!
There are still bills to be paid both in the artists domestic lives and in the running of these small labels - A REAL DOUBLE WHAMMY if you like!
In non musician terms it amounts to being a salesman on a commission and that salesman having a hell of a lot of his stock pilfered and being expected to just get on with it because you will always have thieves in society!
The internet is a double edged sword - It has its positives and negatives
One of the negatives being this culture of I WANT AND I WANT NOW! attitude, and until people wake up to the fact that this is DEADLY SERIOUS, we are going to lose the bands we love - Like it or not ( As MAJOR label Genesis would say )
And before anyone says that it doesn't hurt artists signed to major labels like the aforementioned Genesis, i would say.....probably not that much, but it doesn't make it right does it?
But it DEFINITELY hurts the likes of IQ, Pendragon, Arena and other small/self label bands and therefore these bands should have our support on this!
I for one want to be buying albums by the likes of IQ/Pendragon, Arena etc in 10 years time, but if this malaise continues or indeed gets worse i really fear that this will no longer be possible, and i would refuse to put on a face of denial and buy albums by Keane or Radiohead and try to convince myself that i am listening to prog!
Quote from: bluepony on Wed, 2007-09-05, 08:35:36Feel free to visit me anytime! :)
(And you don't even know what car I'm driving...) ;D
I don't need to know. I just need to know where to find your house. ;)
Quote from: PH on Wed, 2007-09-05, 17:43:48
I don't need to know. I just need to know where to find your house. ;)
And...? The CDs wouldn't be there - they're in the car with me! ;D
On the other hand, if I had to replace them it would certainly help raising the income for Shadowland. :)
Here is what Nick Barret (Pendragon) has to say,,,
QuoteOK...so , last week we checked out a few stats for you, and this is where we are . There is a site called Mininova, where you can see the Past And Presence DVD [not cd!!] has been downloaded illegally 810 times [Losing us £17,000 gross before costs if the same people were to buy it from our website].
Given that over all sales of the Past And Presence dvd is probably gonna hit 3,000 copies absolute tops, that is about a quarter of lost sales...on this one site alone!!!
They also show figures of approx 1,400 downloads illegally of Believe,
[Losing us about £14,000 gross if the same people were to buy it from our website] and more on our other albums too. Given that we have sold 18,000 Believes you can see that this makes a big dent in us getting paid, don't forget this is one one site alone!
Some other illegal download stats for you are:
Site x And Now Everybody To The Stage DVD - 1,930 downloads
Site x Believe - 1,291 downloads
Site x Past And Presence DVD - 1,192 downloads
Site y The World - 1,829 downloads
Site z Past And Presence DVD -174
This is getting more and more insane. And as we slip further and further into debt just trying to keep going , I really wonder how these people can do this and sleep at night.
On a good note we have managed to get Mini Nova to scrap 13 titles from their database, now we're gonna try and hit the others!
I am an extremely determined person, who will fight tooth and nail to the end to keep Pendragon alive, but this is sooooooo disheartening, when I sit here and think about the kind of effort that needs to go into making the new album, trying to get the absolute best melodies I can, get lyrics that are about things that matter, lyrics/music that will [hopefully] move people, digging deep into my pockets to find fresh ideas that will inspire me, and hopefully become entrenched in new music that will uplift and inspire people...I sit here and think, what's the sodding point?
I know from talking to Martin from IQ, before announcing leaving IQ he had become completely disillusioned with this whole records sales/downloading situation, Clive has put something on the Arena forum too.
It is just so damn annoying! if you love a band so much, why wouldnt you pay good money to buy dvds and cds. I dont even know how to download stuff and if i did i wouldnt do it. I agree with Nick. How can these people sleep at night? I dont really consider these downloaders as fans, just a pain in the bum!!!!
I totally agree! I never downloaded any songs from the internet (except when e.g. there were sound samples on a band's homepage, as I consider this being rather 'official' and legal), and even if I did I would make sure that it's from a page where the artists get paid!!
In fact, I just ordered some CDs from the Verglas store (as a present for a friend who doesn't know Arena yet - tsk, tsk, we have to change that, don't we?! ;) ), so I hope I will sleep very well tonight! :)
Good on you girl!! I managed to convert two people too and they bought cds!
Well done! :)
I'll work on that as well - just that my friend doesn't know that he will be 'converted' soon. ;D
...............coming out of lurking mode to add my thoughts..............
OK, it seems to me that there are 2 main ponits here that we all agree on.
(I did originally start off by joining in the ranting and raving about illegal downloading and the effects of the internet on music but where to stop ? All I will say is that in my opinion the internet has been a good vehicle to get our type of music to new listeners but has indeed been a 'dagger through the heart of music' with the number of illegal file sharing sites that operate, depriving the artists of the revenue they so richly deserve).
Firstly, illegal downloading IS killing a music, well at least the type of music that we all like and
secondly, the true fans would willingly part with more cash to get their hands on more official band merchandise and more music.
So what to do ?
A suggestion I have made before is that when Arena tour they record each show and put them up on their web site for downloading for a small fee (in a similar way to what Metallica do !) I bet the majority of people of this list what willingly pay money for this. Surely this would then raise some welcome income for the band at a nominal cost. Perhaps to ensure the most downloads are made the band should then try to vary their set lists across the tour and have say one particular track that is unique to a particular gig, or perhaps throw in some surprises (Ring of Roses or Grendel for starters !!). It would also mean that the fans would still feel attached to Arena in a live setting as the tour this year was somewhat limited to say the least, although I do appreciate the resons why (only one UK gig - not good !)
Another point I would to make is about a fan club.
Like many people on this list I used to belong to The Cage and was perfectly happy to pay for this privilege, in return for receiving the fan club only CD's and Cage mag plus the opportunity to purchase (non officially released) Arena merchandise (DVD's etc). However the fan club was discontinued as the band wanted to reach a more global audience and felt that the use of the internet and an official web site was a better way of doing this so perhaps in some respects have you shot yourselves in the foot Clive!? (As a side issue I should mention that when it was announced that the Cage was going to be wrapped up that a lot of members had paid for a full year's membership but didn't actually get anything like that. As a result it was offered that by way of compensation we would receive a copy of Contagion - The Max free if we registered by e-mail - I registered on Jan 7th 2005, so in some ways you owe it to us Clive to get this finally done as we have effectively already paid for this ;))
I had thought that when it was launched that online Arena would make it easier to get closer to the band and find out more information about what's going on in the world of Arena sooner but personally I don't feel that is the case. There is only Clive and ocassionally Mick that contribute to this forum - nothing else from the rest of the band despite promises that they'd would arrive soon. Also, it is nearly a year since the last Verglas Newsletter was sent out (September 28th) and I feel that Arena as a band are not keeping up with the flow of information that us fans deserve/desire. I can fully understand some reasons for this as all the guys have other things on their plate but I guess it's a case of having more important things to do than to keep updating the web site/posting on the forum. At least when the Cage was running it was down to other guys (Erik and friends) to gather info and send it out.
So I ask if the idea of a new (fee based) fan club (with some exclusive material) could be something else to consider, to run alongside the web site which again would raise more revenue with minimal input (well, from the band anyway) ?
Finally, I assume that the band actually receive more money for sales through the Verglas web site so perhaps you should encourage more fans to buy Arena releases through the site, by offering the chance of having purchases signed fully by the band. I now when I've order in the past I've always sent an e-mail to ask if they could be signed and you've always obligued - thanks (although only Clive and Mick sign - what about the other guys ?) but allowing this as an option would again I feel generate more sales through the site and therefore more money to the band with minimal effort. This is infact something that Chris Caffrey (Savatage guitarist/solo artist) offers I have in the past ordered direct from him and willingly paid a higher price (as it's shipped from the US) for something that is personally signed to me, something that a true fan would pay extra for (well, I do !)
So food for thought ?!?
BTW currently playing Contagion, just finished Immortal ? and before that The Visitor.
Oh well I fell a need to lurk again so for now.......................ahhh..........................
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-08-06, 15:26:06
Alright, but how about the rest of us who don't live in the UK? :(
What about those of us who live in the UK but don't want to be ripped off in London. play more regional gigs.
Quote from: guigWhat about those of us who live in the UK but don't want to be ripped off in London. play more regional gigs.
While I for one would love a Scottish gig, it can only happen if enough tickets can be shifted. It is far easier to stick to the 'stock' venues and hope others will travel there when the cost of a poorly attended gig is just too much for a band to bear.
Look at It Bites. One well attended set of gigs last year, and the first time out this year we stand in a mostly empty field in Fife, and now John Mitchell has to go onto the forums to drum up enough people to keep the CRS gig alive this weekend. We are sinking in a sea of apathy.
It would be nice to think that the 'cost' of downloads could come to bands who deserve it, but the simple fact is only a small %age of those downloading would buy if that was the only option.
I've looked at what my love of 'prog' costs me each year. Between CD/DVD purchases and the trips to down south to see the bands (who seldom come up here), it easily ends up over 1,000 pounds a year. I don't grudge it, I choose to spend my money that way, but the trouble is so much of that money goes to the railways, airlines, hotels, promoters, not the band.
Events like Summers End are a great way to publicise 14 bands over 1 weekend and give fans great value for money. Maybe more of this kind of collaboration would help. Have the bands co-promote it too and keep more of the cash. Offer lots of merchandise too at these events, and as has been mentioned before, sell mixes of the gig.
I really feel for the bands today, as it must simply be so soul destroying to put absolutely everything into what you love and find you are ripped off at every turn.
Quote from: bellanova on Thu, 2007-09-06, 14:42:04
It is just so damn annoying! if you love a band so much, why wouldnt you pay good money to buy dvds and cds. I dont even know how to download stuff and if i did i wouldnt do it. I agree with Nick. How can these people sleep at night? I dont really consider these downloaders as fans, just a pain in the bum!!!!
I think that Bella has a point here. True fans of prog groups are bright enough to be aware of the limited income of their groups, and therefore I reckon that in general fans will gladly pay properly for their music.
The people downloading for free I reckon are either young people who don't have much money, or unconscionable people who wouldn't anyway spend much on music.
So I don't think that the loss in income for the groups is nearly as big as it's being made to be.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Thu, 2007-09-06, 23:49:54
So I don't think that the loss in income for the groups is nearly as big as it's being made to be.
Well, maybe not, but I can understand Nick's point of view. Of course it must make you angry when you see that people download your songs for free and you don't get paid for the hard work you put into these songs. On the other hand, how many of those downloaders would actually buy the album? (I guess we'll never know...)
I dont have much money as ive been unemployed for ages but i would spend my last penny on a cd or a gig because its what i love!
So would I - so all we need to do now is get the bands to give us a chance to do so! ;)
Maybe you should try playing some Arena for your boss while he's eating his lunch, Bluey.
Nicky.
Er - no, I don't think that would work. He's very much into all this latino stuff ('Andy & Lucas' being one of his favourites I think) and likes the typical charts song (i. e. not longer than 3 to 4 minutes - an 'attention span' problem?). He listened to some of the music I like, but definitely didn't like it. :( Yet he earns enough money to support a whole bunch of financially stuggling prog bands! >:(
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-09-04, 17:03:49
if Clive and Co will rerelease the Shadowland albums, I'll be happy to buy them! As it seems that they're out of print... :(
Oddly Shadowland are my 'band of the moment' having spent last week wandering the streets of Paris with my 29 Shadowland tracks on shuffle on the iPod - some bloody good stuff there, hadn't listended to it for a long time (did myself a "Best Of" CD mix for the car and subjected the wife and son to it!!).
If the CD's aren't for reprint how about as downloadable purchases? No great overheads and money coming into the Verglas coffers (I'd like the Strangers on a Train ones please - not paying the £40 someone on Amazon wanted, I'd rather the money went to Verglas not some opportunist).
Steve
"Maybe that also spells the end for Bagpipes and Fender Rhodes Pianos .... some pet dislikes there (sorry if you like them!)..."
Gee, and I going to post some mp3s of my bagpipe-and-Fender Rhodes arrangements of my favorite Arena tunes.
Quote from: Constable Hogweed on Wed, 2007-09-05, 16:52:58
Just an idea to throw out at my fellow proggers here!
When Arena release the next album, what if we all bought TWO copies, I'm sure most of us could manage that!
One CD for your player, and a nice shiny unopened one just in case the other one gets f*cked up somehow!
I think that's doable, but I would rather give away my second disc at someones birthday. In that way I might also get a new person to like Arena.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Thu, 2007-09-06, 23:49:54
So I don't think that the loss in income for the groups is nearly as big as it's being made to be.
Nicky.
oh really???
you're 'avin a frikkin laugh aren't you??
Well here are some figures for you....
Jan 96 Dec 96 55,796 units Masquerade year
Jan 97 Dec 97 23,934 units
Jan 98 Dec 98 13,217 units
Jan 99 Dec 99 15,439 units
Jan 2000 Dec 2000 5,408 units
Jan 2001 Dec 2001 24,582 units Not Of year
Jan 2002 Dec 2002 8,423 units
Jan 2003 Dec 2003 4,150 units
Jan 2004 Dec 2004 3,596 units
Jan 2005 Dec 2005 11,630 units Believe year [a lot of Believe sales were spread across to following year ]
Jan 2006 Dec 2006 10,873 units
Jan 2007 Oct 2007 3,872 units
You can see sales have slumped drastically since 2001 [when downloading took a hold], even though they were very steady until 3 years after Masquerade even with very little activity from the band for this period.
However even though in the last two years Pendragon have done the biggest tour ever [2006] , played a number of 'profile' festivals, released 4 dvds, done masses or promo [interviews, reviews, web activity, radio interviews, national UK television etc] .....Cd/DVD sales have seriously headed South!!!
Pendragon made a profit of £6,000 for end of year accounts 2006...that isn't enough to live on. Yet illegal downloading of our cds and dvds accounts for tens of thousands or potential lost sales, from an increasing amount of people who simply don't want to pay for Cds/dvds.
We've heard people say, [most of whom haven't got a clue about this market at all] quite arrogantly, well you've got to adapt and diversify to compete, but it's pretty hard to compete with 'free'!
But it's more promotion for the band? These 'new fans' certainly don't turn up to concerts if you pro rate the amount of people that download our stuff there is no increase whatsoever in our gig attendances.
You can roughly divide artists into 3 categories:
1. Big bands like Radiohead, Prince don't give a hoot about downloading, they are so angry with record companies they are thrilled to be able to finally tell EMI where to stick their record contract. But they have enough fanbase to sell out stadiums, sell masses of merchandise/t.shirts and if for example, Radiohead sell 100,000 [a fraction of their sales base] of this double gatefold thing that they are doing at £40, that's £4 million in the bank! ...with No record company rake off. These guys can make it work for them.
[I assume you saw that about 60% of the people who downloaded their album for free, paid nothing at all for it, on their 'pay what you like scheme'?]
2. Small bands don't give a hoot...they're just glad someone can be bothered to download them.
3. It's the middle bands that are being hit, Pendragon, IQ , Arena, Mostly Autumn, Marillion, Fish, Camel, all yer faves...
These are the independant lablels mostly owned by the bands themselves that are struggling, they just aren't big enough to seriously diversify [like Radiohead] and not small enough to warrant getting a full time job, as the time they put into their bands IS full time.
What about touring? At our level the gig scene is in serious danger of overkill, take the Boerderij in Holland, there are at least 6 prog acts due to play there in 5 weeks running up to Christmas, most fans just can't afford to see all those gigs.
The audience is getting watered down, talk to the promoters and they will tell you the same,'toooooooo many prog bands touring!!'
To make a living out of touring, at our level? You're lucky if you don't make a loss.
T.shirts! Ah now ya talking, this is about the only area you can bring in decent income, we grossed £17,000 on merch sales on the Believe tour, it cost £8,000 to make the items, £2,500 VAT to pay, £1,000 for the merch guy's wages , so £5,500 profit..HOORAY!!.....which went to pay some of the losses of the tour...BOO!
People who believe at our level they are gonna go out and make money from tours and sell millions of t.shirts have got their heads up their asses..
Most prog musicians at our kind of level who are surviving at the moment do so because they have got their money from another source. Period.
If you don't believe me that the income is being seriously hit by downloading you can come and look at our accounts!
Nick x
Quote from: Nick B on Fri, 2007-11-09, 14:21:09
Most prog musicians at our kind of level who are surviving at the moment do so because they have got their money from another source. Period.
If you don't believe me that the income is being seriously hit by downloading you can come and look at our accounts!
Nick x
I do believe you ... and it's sad :-[
Quote from: Nick B on Fri, 2007-11-09, 14:21:09
you're 'avin a frikkin laugh aren't you??
I love you too, Nick :) :) ;)
Yeah, I'm real sorry that the life of a serious rock musician is so hard - honestly. I'm tryin to help by writing reviews and tugging my fellow roomies at the b* or whatever. Unfortunately I can't help financially, because I'm a chronic unemployee and
my economy is also a f*d up mess - and I do need the occasional CD and beer.
But imo the main purpose of places like the Room is to support our wonderful musicians, so let's keep the wheels spinnin.
Keep it up, Nick and Clive and all you other great musicians *horns*
Nicky.
It's not the downloading, but the attitude towards downloading that is a problem.
People downloading everything they can get their hands on, are NO FANS.
First two roads:
Download ---> like? ---> buy
Download ---> shit? ---> not buy (and of course delete from the harddisk, what's the point of still having it there anyway?)
There's also the third road:
Download ---> like? ---> not buy
This is the WRONG road.
Now, what you are saying is that EVERYONE who downloads music, takes the third road. This is NOT true.
People who CARE about music, will ALWAYS buy the music they love!
Download with care!
Forgive me for saying this but saying that downloading makes sales decrease is PURE BULLSHIT!!
Not buying an album makes sales decrease. (or rather, "not increase", you can't always win, right? ;) )
And is downloading the same as "not buying"?
*looks at first two roads*
No.
So, to solve the problem you have to think of something else. :-\
I'm not really sure what you're trying to do with posting things like that here. I think you have to try to reach the careless downloaders, but I have absolutely no idea how you could do that.
The main thing we're doing here is just talking about music and giving each other recommendations.
-Paco
Handy you bring up the subject of bullsh*t, because talking about music but not wanting think about the issues the musicians we admire face is like keep and cow but hoping it don't poop!
Unfortunately, unpalatable as it seems, these issues are REAL and threaten (REALLY) to topple the viability of our favourite bands to continue.
Now we could continue to talk about music and ignore this issue but when do you think it will dawn on us that all our favourite bands have gone to the wolves?
You are right of course when you say it is those who download and DO NOt buy that are making the serious dint in things, but unforutnately they make up the biggest percentage of downloaders. Even folk who consider themselves fans.
But why should you assume the right to 'try before you buy' ? Surely the musicians themselves should make that choice, and we as fans should respect it?
There is SO much music now on myspace, youtube, official websites etc etc that you could listen for MONTHS and never here the same track twice!
I think we should recpect that and not take what we have not been offered!
To solve the problem you suggest Nick thinks of something else, so Nick Barrett becomes a plumber, Clive has a shelf stacking job in Tescos...etc...etc.... what do you suggest to these guys that they actually do if the theft of their material means that they no longer are able to work as musicians?
I for one believe that my life would be much, much poorer (not in a financial sense) if the music I love was no longer available.
A couple of years ago I shared a holiday cottage with some friends, (not close or long term friends, just folk we knew) we were supposed to be there for 4 days, after day three we left early, there are only so many Britney Spears albums I can stomach....... I love good music, and I want it to continue. Turning away from these serious problems does not help that one liitle bit!
you say
Not buying an album makes sales decrease. (or rather, "not increase", you can't always win, right? )
but if 20,000 people were buying albums 8 years ago, and now 10,000 decide to download instead of buy, then it is clearly making a DECREASE isn't it? It's not simply a case of not increasing.
From reading the post by Nick I think his reasons for posting that are clear..... aren't they? He is being pretty open with us....
It stinks I know. But a peg on the nose dosn't not make it less smelly. ;)
Quote from: PH on Fri, 2007-11-09, 15:36:37
It's not the downloading, but the attitude towards downloading that is a problem.
People downloading everything they can get their hands on, are NO FANS.
This is what I wrote too some time ago, and I still think it's correct.
The "problem" is that the amount of CD-releases has increased dramatically during the past years - great for music lovers, but bad for musicians.
Again, the prog musicians are the ones who get squeezed, for at least two reasons:
1. The number of proggies hasn't increased nearly as much as the prog CD-releases, and the relatively few proggies don't have more money in their hands
2. Bullshit "musicians" who are mainly in it for the moolah put out masses of bullshit CD's with all sorts of flashy covers - all sorts of boobs in all sorts of angles, that jive - which serious musicians would never consider doing
But guys, we
gotta do something to keep our musicians goin.
Nicky.
boobs?
Did I miss the boobs? ;)
In the world of prog I don't know ANYONE who I would consider "in it for the money" as you say, there isn't any money!
I definitely didn't see boobs........... ;)
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:36:39
In the world of prog I don't know ANYONE who I would consider "in it for the money" as you say, there isn't any money!
I definitely didn't see boobs........... ;)
;D Well, women tend to have a couple, and nowadays one doesn't have to look too hard to see'm, in fact they keep spillin out of my TV ....
OK Creamie, I didn't make it clear, but I was talkin about non-prog musicians - one could almost say "anti-prog" :(
Nicky.
he he he...... cos there sure aint many boobs in prog! ;-)
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:08:41Handy you bring up the subject of bullsh*t, because talking about music but not wanting to think about the issues the musicians we admire face, is like keep a cow, but hoping it won't poop!
Heh good one! :) Although it took me a while before I got wot you wer sayin there. ;)
I'm thinking about the issues, but what can I do but think? I can't just go out and like kill all careless downloaders? It's not that I wouldn't like to, 'cos I would...
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:08:41Unfortunately, unpalatable as it seems, these issues are REAL and threaten (REALLY) to topple the viability of our favourite bands to continue.
Now we could continue to talk about music and ignore this issue but when do you think it will dawn on us that all our favourite bands have gone to the wolves?
Sure, I realise and I HATE it! :'( But what can we do? :-\
Don't say "stop downloading" 'cos if you had looked on my three roads system, you would see that this got nothing to do with it.
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:08:41You are right of course when you say it is those who download and DO NOt buy that are making the serious dint in things, but unforutnately they make up the biggest percentage of downloaders.
Yeah, but what exactly is the point in telling us? I've got nothing to do with it. Make a commercial and tell it on tv, maybe we'll reach them that way.
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:08:41Even folk who consider themselves fans.
This can't be true, 'cos a fan does everything to make sure his idols go on with it.
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:08:41But why should you assume the right to 'try before you buy' ? Surely the musicians themselves should make that choice, and we as fans should respect it?
Of course, and this is the case with the middle bands like Nick B. said. But I have absolutely no idea how I would ever discover a little band all the way up in Norway...
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:08:41There is SO much music now on myspace, youtube, official websites etc etc that you could listen for MONTHS and never here the same track twice!
From the same album? Or even the same band? I'm not all impressed by a little snippet of a song or even one song of one album. But maybe you're right. And I do check out the samples on the websites for sure! (Also youtube and myspace, but I don't like snippets made into one medley etc etc)
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:08:41To solve the problem you suggest Nick thinks of something else, so Nick Barrett becomes a plumber, Clive has a shelf stacking job in Tescos...etc...etc.... what do you suggest to these guys that they actually do if the theft of their material means that they no longer are able to work as musicians?
I don't know. I have no idea what Nick wants me to do with posting his message here in this topic. That's like telling your best friend that you hate a guy he doesn't even know, but you're going all angry and spitting at your best friend 'cos you don't know how to grab the other guy.
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:08:41I for one believe that my life would be much, much poorer (not in a financial sense) if the music I love was no longer available.
Me too. Made me realise that at times I rather become blind than deaf. (but then again I can't see my girlfriend and becoming deaf could come in handy in a couple of years.)
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:08:41A couple of years ago I shared a holiday cottage with some friends, (not close or long term friends, just folk we knew) we were supposed to be there for 4 days, after day three we left early, there are only so many Britney Spears albums I can stomach.......
And they left too because they didn't like your music? ;)
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 16:08:41you say
Not buying an album makes sales decrease. (or rather, "not increase", you can't always win, right? )
but if 20,000 people were buying albums 8 years ago, and now 10,000 decide to download instead of buy, then it is clearly making a DECREASE isn't it? It's not simply a case of not increasing.
Although it's very hard to believe (because there's this certain emotion aspect in it) you CAN NOT by any means say it's a decrease. Just "not increasing". Sounds hard eh? :( I know...
Music isn't static, music is dynamic.
Those people that did buy an album back then, but don't do it now, are not fans of the band. We should be glad that they DID buy an album back then, because probably they all either sold it on ebay again, or the discs gather dust in a box in the cellar...
It really must have been a kick in the stomach to see how many REAL fans you've got..
Quote from: PH on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:19:34
Yeah, but what exactly is the point in telling us? I've got nothing to do with it.
hmmmm...... I think Nick was responding to a previous comment! :-\
Quote from: PH on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:19:34
This can't be true, 'cos a fan does everything to make sure his idols go on with it.
Well, I am afraid it IS true, I have met people at gigs who say they have downloaded EVERYTHING the band have done and have NO intention of buying anything. I have seen people on torrent sites say they are 'the biggest fan of X band'.....
Quote from: PH on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:19:34
But I have absolutely no idea how I would ever discover a little band all the way up in Norway...
I'm not all impressed by a little snippet of a song or even one song of one album. But maybe you're right. And I do check out the samples on the websites for sure! (Also youtube and myspace, but I don't like snippets made into one medley etc etc)
But, if that snippet or one album track is what is being offered, then that should be all that is taken.... it's like being offered a slice but taking the whole blooming cake!
Norway has the internet too, people must accept what is offered (ie the snippets) and not get so greedy as to take the whole cake!
Quote from: PH on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:19:34
Those people that did buy an album back then, but don't do it now, are not fans of the band. We should be glad that they DID buy an album back then, because probably they all either sold it on ebay again, or the discs gather dust in a box in the cellar...
Huh?!?!?!?!!
You think Clive, Mick, Nick (etc etc etc) should be GRATEFUL for the folk that have stopped buying and started downloading?
Well that's the warpedest logic I ever did hear! :-\
Quote from: PH on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:19:34
It really must have been a kick in the stomach to see how many REAL fans you've got..
That my friend is a pretty sick thing to say don't you think?
Like I say, this is like putting a peg on your nose so you don't smell the poop, it doesn't make it go away.
no one is directing their anger about downloading at you, in a thread that discusses the issue and raises questions about the relevance of the issue, the points made have relevance, and indeed have been posted in answer to questions raised!
CAx
All things said by everyone in this thread is the truth, some to more extent, some less, and some are misunderstandings.
The problem we're really facing is: We don't know if our bands would make more money from CD sales if downloading wouldn't exist. Simple as that, it's a theory nobody can either prove or disprove. When you see thousands of people downloading THEIR WORK OF ART for free, everybody can surely understand that this brings the artists up the ceiling! On the other hand, we don't know how many of those who download are buying/not buying the CDs afterwards, and we don't know how many of them are attending/not attending shows.
My feeling tells me, and that's probably what makes Nick do this post (correct me if I'm wrong here), that the vast majority of downloads are Paco's "road three", or even worse: "download -> don't care -> don't buy -> keep anyway".
If we or governments or ISPs had the means to control all internet traffic, and make those who download music pay for it automatically, then we'd be in a state where the artist would always be rewarded for his work. But what kind of state would that be...
What's left for me to say is: "Chapeau" and Kudos to our bands, for fighting hard to get around doing their thing!
I consider myself a real ARENA fan. I buy EVERY SINGLE THING that can be put in a CD or DVD player, go to at least one or two concerts and buy a piece of ARENA clothing on every tour. Also, I'm running this forum. End of my means to support the bunch, all done gladly and with my heart, would do more if I could.
I play my music to as many people as I can. Prog is strenuous music, not many people want to sit and LISTEN to music, most want background muzak. Still, I think it's worth the try!
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:56:56
Well, I am afraid it IS true, I have met people at gigs who say they have downloaded EVERYTHING the band have done and have NO intention of buying anything. I have seen people on torrent sites say they are 'the biggest fan of X band'.....
Gawd, that's so... just hit 'em up their faces. >:( Can't believe how these guys can NOT see what a*****les they are.
I really want to buy A NEW ARENA ALBUM!!
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:56:56Well, I am afraid it IS true, I have met people at gigs who say they have downloaded EVERYTHING the band have done and have NO intention of buying anything. I have seen people on torrent sites say they are 'the biggest fan of X band'.....
For this I want to refer to Peter's post and add a FULL AGREEMENT on what he said. Those people should have cut their balls off... And if they're female... well... no wait, let's stay with that...
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:56:56But, if that snippet or one album track is what is being offered, then that should be all that is taken.... it's like being offered a slice but taking the whole blooming cake!
I know. But when I DO like a snippet I am already almost certain to buy it.
When I don't like a snippet AT ALL, than I'm glad I didn't make my desicion based on that snippet alone, or else I wouldn't have bought the album in the end.
You get? ;)
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:56:56Norway has the internet too, people must accept what is offered (ie the snippets) and not get so greedy as to take the whole cake!
Yeah, it's just that I don't really search for a band in Czech Republic for instance. And they certainly aren't searching for me either...
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:56:56Quote from: PH on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:19:34Those people that did buy an album back then, but don't do it now, are not fans of the band. We should be glad that they DID buy an album back then, because probably they all either sold it on ebay again, or the discs gather dust in a box in the cellar...
Huh?!?!?!?!! You think Clive, Mick, Nick (etc etc etc) should be GRATEFUL for the folk that have stopped buying and started downloading?
Well that's the warpedest logic I ever did hear! :-\
No. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear... I'm just a Dutch 19 year old school boy. ;D I'll try to explain:
There could be people who bought an album in the past (The Jewel perhaps, just giving an example) and after a spin in CD player thought... "Yikes! Yuck! Eew!" And either quickly sold it on the flee market again or put it in a box and let it gather dust in the cellar. Let's say there are 4000 people who did it that way.
Then there are also people who bought the same album and thought "Yippee! An album from Pendragon! And wow, it looks good and sounds good *sniff* and it even SMELLS good! YES!!!". Let's say there are 3000 people like that.
Pendragon looks at the accounts "Wow! We sold 7000 copies of The Jewel already! Hurray!".
Then a few years later...
A man surfs the internet and downloads everything he can. Including Pendragon's latest album. he opens WinAmp puts the music in the playlist and thinks "Yikes! Yuck! Eew!". Let's say 7000 people are like that.
Another man also downloads the same album and thinks "Wow! This is great!" and runs to the shop buying the album. "Wow! The cover art is amazing! And the CD is in much better sound quality! Wow! YES!!!" Let's say 2000 people are like that.
And of course there's this man that knows Pendragon since The Jewel. After hearing about the release he's running to the shop and bought it "Yippee! A new album from Pendragon! My favourite band! And wow, it looks good and sounds good *sniff* and it even SMELLS good! YES!!!" These are 3000 people.
Pendragon looks at the accounts: "What?! We sold just 5000 albums this time!! And in the very beginning we even sold 7000 albums!! How's this possible?!" *Listens to the news, watches tv, hears about people downloading music* "Aha!" *checks torrent sites* "AHA!! 9000 people are downloading the music instead of buying it! That means that we could have sold 9000 more albums if the people wouldn't download!"
You see?
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:56:56That my friend is a pretty sick thing to say don't you think?
No. And I think that now you'll know why I said that. There's the CORE of people who always like and buy the music. But there's also the people who occasionally just like an album. That way you can calculate how many TRUE fans (the core) you've got. And indeed, reality hurts sometimes... :-\
Quote from: creme anglais on Fri, 2007-11-09, 17:56:56no one is directing their anger about downloading at you
Of course. I know.
I hope I didn't look like a monster to you, cos I'm not that bad. Just pretending. ;D
-Paco
phew.......I feel a bit knackered after reading that lot! :o
er.....OK SO!! We all more or less agree then....that's how I read this. Yes we can split hairs about some of the details but it seems we do more or less agree on the basics of PH's Road 3 being a big f*** off fundamental problem. Which I think it is.
And.............. here are some split hairs!...
I should point out, regarding what PH wrote in blue is slightly off centre, as slumping sales happended to Pendragon, Arena, IQ, Marillion all at pretty much the same time , so it isn't subject to popularity of an individual band on an album by album basis .
The reason I wrote this is to INFORM...no more no less. You the public will make your choices. A point was raised , the topic here was about downloads and the affect on bands, I responded and feel it to be very relevant to the discussion.
If just 5-10,000 people bought our stuff instead of simply downloading it for free, it would make a massive diffference to our survival, I want people to know what just a small change will make to us and bands like us.
It's all very well to say, you will all need to get 'proper' jobs then. So too then eventually will, all film makers, book writers, journalists, musicians, artists, poets, magazine printers because everyone is starting to get this stuff for free, so none of the creators of it get paid and the value of quality could just take a serious tumble.
The reason WHY we [and other bands like us] do this is:
For nearly 30 years I have written, performed and recorded music. Why?
Certainly not for massive financial reward as the prime reason.
There have been times when I have said ....perhaps we should pack it in when we have had big problems.
But a little voice inside my head has said , NO. I have this strange unquantifiable love for doing this...... and there are a helluva lot of people who have this weird strange unquantifiable love for listening to what we produce...that is THE chemistry, no one knows why, we all just know it makes sense to us all.
People are on our side, and we are on theirs, I really want to feel that this is "all for one and one for all!"
Nick x
ps Nicky......didn't mean to sound too brusque! You gotta imagine it said in a Cockney [ London] accent! ;)
Quote from: Nick B on Fri, 2007-11-09, 22:36:50phew.......I feel a bit knackered after reading that lot! :o
Yeah, put us all in a room give us a topic to talk about and we'll ramble away. ;) I really love it that you've actually read back the whole lot. Often, in discussions like these, people tend to forget what we were on about and then it starts going off topic... Checking back is vital for good discussions, understanding each other and so forth.
Quote from: Nick B on Fri, 2007-11-09, 22:36:50er.....OK SO!! We all more or less agree then....that's how I read this. Yes we can split hairs about some of the details but it seems we do more or less agree on the basics of PH's Road 3 being a big f*** off fundamental problem. Which I think it is.
Absolutely!!
Quote from: Nick B on Fri, 2007-11-09, 22:36:50And.............. here are some split hairs!...
I should point out, regarding what PH wrote in blue is slightly off centre, as slumping sales happended to Pendragon, Arena, IQ, Marillion all at pretty much the same time , so it isn't subject to popularity of an individual band on an album by album basis.
That wasn't also nessecarily my point. ;) Although of course now and then this is a realistic situation (popularity of an individual band on an album by album basis).
But the idea of my post was that in the past salesnumbers didn't represent the fans, because many people in the past bought an album and never listened to it anymore. Since the rising of the internet, some people don't buy these albums, they download them. Then you have the same sort of people that don't like it and don't buy it. So logically the salesnumbers are lower than # years ago. You cannot base the expected salesnumbers of a coming album on the salesnumbers you've had before the rising of the internet. But luckily there's the core (the true fans) that bought the albums through the years (before and after the rising of the internet). And now you're safe basing the salesnumbers on the amount of fans. (In my (blue) example this would be 3000.) Then you'll see and can't deny that downloading also brought new fans, because although the salesnumbers are lower, more people are added to the fans-list (2000 in my example).
The problem is, you can't check this. (because there's also the album by album basis)
Well... actually you CAN check how many caring fans you have by having them to buy the album before the recording of it. Like Marillion did.
I hope this was understandable... English isn't my native language and I really was having a hard time getting this typed down... :(
Just trying to help.
-Paco
Hi guys! It's been a while but here I am again, after a couple of hectic weeks! :)
I thought the following would fit perfectly in the discussion...it's a rather sad message from Mattias Norén, the artist who also did the artwork for some Arena (fanclub) albums like 'The Visitor Revisited', 'Unlocking The Cage' and 'Breakfast In Biarritz'. I took this message from www.progart.com, his website.
Quote
Dear all!
I have been running my CD artwork business for a few years now. I guess it's every artist's dream to be able to make a living out of something you really love to do. Unfortunately the music business has really suffered from all illegal downloading. Until about a year ago it didn't really hurt my business, but lately I have struggled with labels and artists asking me to do jobs for them and then they haven't been able to pay me in time... or pay at all. I have heard from other cover artists that they are having the same problems.
When I'm writing this there are 5 labels/artists that owe me money that don't even bother answering my mails anymore. I have a family to feed here... this is simply not working anymore. I still love doing cover art and work with all those fantastic bands out there... but the "business part" has sucked all energy out of me lately. So when a "real" job showed up I decided to take it with a start in January 2008.
I will finish all projects I'm working on at the moment, and while doing this I won't take on any new projects AT ALL. After that ProgArt Media will be something that I can only spend a limited couple of hours a week on.
The situation might change again in the future. I don't know. I just feel that this is what I want to do right now. I hope you can understand and respect my decision. I can tell you, it wasn't an easy one.
/Mattias
Too bad, I really liked his work, and not only on the Arena-albums he did the artwork for. Having said that, I completely understand his decision... :-\
Tom
Truly sad news :'(
For his business, but also for him personal, now he won't be albe to fully spend what ever time he wants on his passion, on his talent/gift. It will become second after his "real job" and from experience I know it's hard to pick up a pencil after a long and frustrating day. It's hard to get inspired when you're tired and dull from work.
Illegal downloading >:(
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Thu, 2007-11-22, 21:52:24
Truly sad news :'(
For his business, but also for him personal, now he won't be albe to fully spend what ever time he wants on his passion, on his talent/gift. It will become second after his "real job" and from experience I know it's hard to pick up a pencil after a long and frustrating day. It's hard to get inspired when you're tired and dull from work.
Well, I think only few of us really can do that... still, it
is sad news. :(
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Thu, 2007-11-22, 21:52:24
Illegal downloading >:(
Yes, (illegal) downloadings sucks! >:(
Quote from: bluepony on Fri, 2007-11-23, 11:45:19
Well, I think only few of us really can do that... still, it is sad news. :(
But he could, he was good enough to be able to do that. And now, because of some [insert curse] idiots, he is forced to stop doing that. That's just not fair, and in the end, really not necessary. If only politicians would pick this up and take this kind of stealing serious, because world wide, this involves millions, if not billions.
I can only imagine how frustrated and betrayed artists must feel when this happens to them :( If you like the music, BUY it. You don't go into your friends house, have fun there and when you leave you take the silver cutlery...
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Fri, 2007-11-23, 12:50:12
But he could, he was good enough to be able to do that.
I know - I guess what I was trying to say is, I admire (and also envy) anyone who can make their passion their job. I wish I could do that... ah well... after all, I
do have the chance to speak several languages, I just wish I wasn't selling something as unexcitinig as wheel locks... *sigh*
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Fri, 2007-11-23, 12:50:12
I can only imagine how frustrated and betrayed artists must feel when this happens to them :( If you like the music, BUY it.
Exactly!!
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Fri, 2007-11-23, 12:50:12
You don't go into your friends house, have fun there and when you leave you take the silver cutlery...
Oh... good you mention it! ;)
Quote from: bluepony on Fri, 2007-11-23, 12:56:10
Oh... good you mention it! ;)
Guys, if you need some silver cutlery, you can buy it from Bluey. She has masses ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-11-23, 13:01:54
Guys, if you need some silver cutlery, you can buy it from Bluey ;D
Nicky.
Sure - and some fake health insurance ID cards as well! ;)
That's sad news! :'(
I really like his work. One of the best cover artists around.
:-\
Yeah, sad thing there happening. His catalogue is amazing!
It's a sad and harsh fact that downloading (illegally) is damaging not only the musicians themselves but the wider spectrum of folk involved in the process of the whole package.
When musicians speak up about the hurt caused they are often shot down with weak and selfish justifications for (illegal) downloading, but here is a prime example of the bigger picture.
Sound engineers, artists, cd plant staff, printers, producers, there are hundreds involved in getting the music you love into the package you love into your homes. The torrenting of music has such a massive effect.
When music is taken in this way a band has no income to plow into a a great show, they don't know if or where there fans are so a tour becomes an even bigger risk, folk like Mattias are having to look at other avenues of income and eventually the whole package becomes distorted.
Sad news indeed.
CA :'(
Hi, Clive, Nick and all ladies and gentlemen presented here!
I am from Russia, so sorry my bad English.
This topic have touched and upset me very much. I am a big fan of both your bands and neo- and retro-prog in general. Each new release from you is long-awaited and joyful event for me - and I wish you go on.
I have started the topics inspired by that on three russian forums. Here they are:
http://deep-purple.ru/scgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?tid=4822&pid=93065&msg=PstChange#93065 (Deep Purple and classic rock lovers, mostly serious and sober-minded. Some musicians and music journalists also are there. Clive, do you remember Vladimir Milovidov from "InRock" magazine? He is there.)
http://vmeste.org/cgi-bin/dcforum2/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=464&forum=DCForumID7&omm=0 (Art-rock lovers. Unfortunately not very active life is there)
http://forum.exler.ru/index.php?s=df340eab84968747249355e5cabc4348&showtopic=129474 (Musical forum with very very different visitors, without any specialization. At least one journalist is there.)
And there are most common opinions:
1. No use to try change situation. You couldn't reclaim all your audience. Some faithful fans will buy new releales, but certain (and most) people will download anyway. This is happened everywhere - in pop music, heavy - and prog is not an exception.
2. Human mentality have irreversible changed due internet. New generation grown. And they don't even think, that downloading is immoral. I have tried to argue against them, but as if we're talking different languages. There is the Russian word with Jewish origin - халява (halyava). It means "something for nothing, quickly and a lot of" . So halyava is very contagious and depraving thing.
3. Your music is not commercial from the very beginning - you can't reach the big success now, by current state of world musical industry.
4. There are too many bands like you (sorry, it was spoken by not me!) In non-mainsteam genres the BIG public and major labels don't want many similar bands (one Dream Theater, one Iron Maiden, one Metallica etc. are enough) Why don't you try to reach the Metallica's level? - were written. I replied, that you're better than them and I like you for the music you're creating now.
All these things are rather depressing, but anyway, you should adapt yourself to it. Just don't know how.
My question is: most of your catalogue (both Arena and Pendragon, also Threshold, Jadis, Shadowland and many friendly bands) were licensed in Russia by labels Irond, AMG and CD Maximum. The average price is about 3,5-4 pounds. Is it any little profitable for you? Do you feel a Russian contribution to your issue?
I even afraid ask you about a Russian tour... But maybe? How John Mitchell had reported about a visit to us with Mr. Wetton? Two unforgettable gigs - a miracle!
Sincerely yours.
Andrey Gorsky, St.Petersbourg, Russia.
Hi Andrey, Welcome to this great site for Arena and other serious bands.
It's real cheering to hear from the serious music scene in Russia.
We're all struggling to stay above water, but the great music is worth it.
Good luck to you over there.
And you have a long cold winter to get through :)
By the way, my name, Nicholas Peter, is derived from the Russian czars ;)
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-12-02, 13:27:02
Hi Andrey, Welcome to this great site for Arena and other serious bands.
I already wrote some posts here long ago, but have forgot the password and re-logged ;D
QuoteAnd you have a long cold winter to get through :)
Not so cold. Last year snow has fallen only after the Xmas (our orthodox Xmas is Jan.7th)
Although right now it is snow. But tomorrow it will melted anyway. What a nice weather for driving. :-\
QuoteBy the way, my name, Nicholas Peter, is derived from the Russian czars ;)
Peter was really great, but both of Nicholas were not so. Especially second of them because he let the revolution happen.
By the way, when I have seen your signature, I first thought that IQ singer also is here! :)
Quote from: Andrey_G on Sun, 2007-12-02, 17:21:38
I already wrote some posts here long ago, but have forgot the password and re-logged.
Are you the young man who was looking for a musician for your band ? :)
> Peter was really great, but both of Nicholas were not so. Especially second of them because he let the revolution happen.
Interesting, Andrey, never thought of it that way. 8)
> By the way, when I have seen your signature, I first thought that IQ singer also is here! :)
I dont understand what you mean :(
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-12-02, 18:02:19
Are you the young man who was looking for musician for your band ? :)
Not me. And I'm not so young, unfortunately.
QuoteI dont understand what you mean :(
At the very first look I have read your name as "Peter Nichols". :)
Quote from: Andrey_G on Sun, 2007-12-02, 18:30:58
Not me. And I'm not so young, unfortunately.
I'm 52 myself. Whether that's fortunate or not, I dont know; that's the course of life, isnt it, Andrey? Each age has its pros and contras, isnt that so?
At 52, I'm not struggling as much with my libido and pimples as earlier; gives me time for other things ;)
> At the very first look I have read your name as "Peter Nichols". :)
OK, now I got it. Never thought about this proximity, but then again, I'm not much of an IQ fan. (If you're interested in what I like, you can take a look at my Listening Profile.)
Nicky.
Be welcome, Andrey_G into the Room. 8)
QuoteI'm 52 myself.
Oh! Then I'm really young. Just 37.
QuoteBe welcome, Andrey_G into the Room.
Thanks! :)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-12-02, 18:40:57OK, now I got it. Never thought about this proximity, but then again, I'm not much of an IQ fan. (If you're interested in what I like, you can take a look at my Listening Profile.)
Seriously dude! Buy Dark Matter and The Seventh House and come back to me after that.
It will suit your Arena ears!
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Sun, 2007-12-02, 22:39:17
Seriously dude! Buy Dark Matter and The Seventh House and come back to me after that.
It will suit your Arena ears!
Dude, I have listened to Dark Matter several times. Nice music, even quite Floydean, but too little going on for my taste (or temperament). The longdrawn organ passages dont do it for me any longer.
Also the lyrics arent up to Arena level imo.
Thirty years ago, this sorta music woulda been the right thing for me, but today I need somethin more b*sy - like NP Opeth's Deliverance.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-12-03, 10:36:19Dude, I have listened to Dark Matter several times. Nice music, even quite Floydean, but too little going on for my taste (or temperament). The longdrawn organ passages dont do it for me any longer.
Dude, I was also talking about The Seventh House, dude.
Dark Matter is more retro (back to roots) than The Seventh House. The Seventh House is a bit darker, ironically.
Dude, did I also say that The Seventh House is (in my opinion) better and closer to Arena than Dark Matter?
And did I say dude?
-Paco
EDIT: By the way (dude), did you listen to Dark Matter at least ten times? ;)
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-12-03, 11:09:53
Dude, I was also talking about The Seventh House, dude.
I'll keep that in mind, dude.
Hey, are you learning any biology these days? ;)
As you know from this topic - note: on-topic again guys - nobody, I repeat: nobody, makes any lucre out of prog (and not me, for sure).
Otoh if we take some of our beloved music with us into the next world, we'll be a lot better off than everyone else, huh dude?
Nicky.
Quotedid I also say that The Seventh House is (in my opinion) better and closer to Arena than Dark Matter?
Personally, I like Dark Matter more. It sounds better (great organ-sounds) and is less fragmented than Seventh House. I love the title track and Erosion, but somehow lose interest along the way.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-12-03, 11:46:59Hey, are you learning any biology these days? ;)
Yes, but at the moment of replying in this topic this morning, I was at my course school, playing teacher and telling those darn kids to stay off hyves/myspace/youtube/MSN.
Hehehe
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-12-03, 11:46:59Otoh if we take some of our beloved music with us into the next world, we'll be a lot better off than everyone else, huh dude?
You talking to me? ;D
I agree bradda.
-Paco
What's wrong with myspace? ???
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Mon, 2007-12-03, 17:39:43What's wrong with myspace? ???
Well nothing. Nothing directly that is. Same goes for youtube and MSN (....and hyves...).
It's just that they should get to work, instead of play. ;D
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-12-03, 17:54:25
Well nothing. Nothing directly that is. Same goes for youtube and MSN (....and hyves...).
It's just that they should get to work, instead of play. ;D
-Paco
When you think that through i must say that a part of what you're saying is true: the youth of nowadays has the tendency to be lazy but when you describe things like Youtube, Hyves, Myspace and MSN shouldn't you include fora's as well? ;)
Quote from: maddox on Tue, 2007-12-04, 20:34:45When you think that through i must say that a part of what you're saying is true: the youth of nowadays has the tendency to be lazy but when you describe things like Youtube, Hyves, Myspace and MSN shouldn't you include fora's as well? ;)
Of course!
I was not being the right example. But as long as they don't see it, they don't know it. And I was a teacher after all! They have to obey me! (Muhahaha!)
I had nothing to do, just playing a surveillant... And they had lots of things to do! That's a difference! ;)
Incredibly off topic...
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-12-04, 21:22:18
Incredibly off topic...
-Paco
As always. ;)
Well with Blue and Nicky as our teacher in Off-topicness i think we're doing a fine job here. ;D
Quote from: maddox on Tue, 2007-12-04, 21:46:13
Well with Blue and Nicky as our teacher in Off-topicness i think we're doing a fine job here. ;D
ME :o :o :o
................
OK, guilty as charged ;D
> Muhahaha!
New to me. Is this the way marshies laugh? exclaim? or sh*? ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-12-04, 22:04:40
> Muhahaha!
New to me. Is this the way marshies laugh? exclaim? or sh*? ;D
Nicky.
Isn't that the way Dr. Evil (in the "Austin Powers" movies) laughs...?
Thanks for giving me another chance to go off-topic! ;)
I simply cannot understand how some people might like a band such as Arena and not purchase their legal releases. It should be such a clear message that if people download illegally, bands on their own labels such as Arena are the first to suffer.
I still waiting for the reply from Clive and other Arena guys...
The topics I've created in Runet (after reading of that one) really brought a responce. I bet that will be continued at the next issue of "InRock" magazine edited by V.Milovidov (aka Impaler). Also I've tried to open Arena & Pendragon music for some orthodox classic-rock fans. Hope it worked.
I want to thank John Jowitt for recent autograph for me on Visitor's booklet (along with the rest bandmates made 3 years ago), him again, John Mitchell and Andy Edwards for the invaluable help for my friends (you know whom I mean!). I'm very impressed, thank you again and again!
Keep on rockin'!
Quote from: bluepony on Fri, 2007-08-03, 13:02:03
Yep, I totally agree!
On the other hand, when there were still tapes (I wonder, does anybody still listen to music cassettes?), people were trading tapes with the latest "hot" bands/music, then it was trading CDs, now it's downloading... as long as you just download as a test and then go out and buy the album, I think it's OK. But of course I know that there are many people out there who download just everything they can get (music, movies etc.). :-[
I agree with that!!
I'm not dowloading,I'm buying, because I know most of the band I'm listening to really need this money, and I enjoy it 'cause most of the time, artwork of the album really worth it. :) *horns*
Bluepony, I have old tapes here at the office, and I was thinking this morning to throw it all away, we don't even have a taperecorder anymore ;D
Quote from: POM on Thu, 2008-01-03, 11:34:27
Bluepony, I have old tapes here at the office, and I was thinking this morning to throw it all away, we don't even have a taperecorder anymore ;D
Nooo! Don't throw them away!! You never know what treasures you might have there... Why not go and buy a walkman instead? ;)