This is a thread I have also started on the Pendragon forum...............
I wondered what you guys thought,
So, why do you think it is that the male/female ratio is so uneven in the prog world???
Why, when you go to a gig is 80% of the audience fellas? (the baby sitting theory dosn't hold up.....it seems to have always this way!)
Why, are 80% of the forum members fellas?
so why is it that prog does not seem to attract the girls?
I ask these questions, because someone said to me today that they could never "pull" at a prog gig.........(obviously a guy said this!)
And girlies.........how comfortable would you feel going to a prog gig on your own?
and why do you think that you (like me) are into a type of music that probably most of your female friends would turn their noses up at?
thoughts please!?!?!?!?
CAx
If I knew an answer to this....
I can only tell you how my wife reacts to my music:
a) Arena, Porcupine Tree, Marillion etc. (which is the softer side for me)
-> She sighs. Loudly.
b) Ayreon, Dream Theater, Shadow Gallery etc. (which is the heavy side)
-> Please! Use your headphones!
In turn I make her use her headphones when she pulls out Celine Dion, Streisand or the like :P
The only music we can listen to together is Robbie Williams (sic!, I think he's a brilliant musician) or Kuschelrock (I don't know an english word for it: music to cuddle to).
I think that the reason not many girls like prog is because girls who do like prog have better taste and indeed a wider taste range in music which makes them all the more interesting
I think the reason there are no girls at gigs is because of the fact that there is so many guys and that they don't have loads of other girls to go with because prog is more of an aquired taste with girls.
Im not sure why prog doesn't attract girls but the girls that it does attract are much more interesting because they have a wide taste range and in my eyes are more desirable.
Hey there! Hope some of you are getting to see them on this tour!
Creme, there is another thread in this same grouping called "Men to women ratio" where we threw some thoughts around. You might want to check that thread out also.
And thanks for the 'varied taste' compliment someone said. I resemble that remark. ;)
I'm going saturday to see Arena... I 'm not going alone: we'll be 6... and I'll be the only girl! ;D
I must say that first I was like Peter"s wife! ::)
But instead of asking my boyfriend to put headphones, I just interessed myself to what he was listening to, because music is important to him ... and he's important to me... so...
To enjoy prog like Ayreon, Dreamtheater,... it needs time I think. I never like the albums the 3-4 first times I listen to it. But then, there's a moment I really feel like... I'm into ! And then ... it's magic! ;)
I was "afraid" by going to see DT last time my boyfriend went to see them. Octavarium is more "accessible", I'm now enjoying "Scene from a Memory" (just can't get it out of me cd-player)...
So I would say that maybe girls don't take the time to listen correctely to prog music.
And maybe we're used to "commercial" music more than boys? Just taking what radio or real-tv is giving ?
Maybe we're afraid to go and see a band of prog and get stuck in a crowd of men dressed in leather, with long hair and drinking too much beer? (seems to be the image some girls have of an audience listening to prog)
Hmmmmm. Still with this information it still obviously shows there are more guys than girls who like prog. I'll cruise round my web sites and other forums to try to get some more insight and then i'll either put it on here for them or they will sign up and do it themselfs. We need a wider selection of people to ask this very interesting and constantly deepening and complex question ;D
Quote from: Higgins III on Fri, 2005-09-16, 23:36:45
Hmmmmm. Still with this information it still obviously shows there are more guys than girls who like prog. I'll cruise round my web sites and other forums to try to get some more insight and then i'll either put it on here for them or they will sign up and do it themselfs. We need a wider selection of people to ask this very interesting and constantly deepening and complex question ;D
I thought that... :P
Lol. ;D. They do say great minds think alike ;D
Make your mind up ;D. Well i know i have a great mind. Remember im a black belt...........in origami. (wow. i havn't heard that 1 before :P)
The sarcasm wasn't clear dearest. Either i didn't pick up on it or you need to state sarcasm more obviously love. ;D :o ::)
Thank you...
That was SARCASM!!! brought to you by keyboardistmatt. ;D
QuoteSo, why do you think it is that the male/female ratio is so uneven in the prog world???
Why, when you go to a gig is 80% of the audience fellas?
Most of the fellas I know aren't interestet in prog music ::) They even say to me that I have a creazy music tast >:(
QuoteAnd girlies.........how comfortable would you feel going to a prog gig on your own?
and why do you think that you (like me) are into a type of music that probably most of your female friends would turn their noses up at?
I am very comfortable going on a prog gig alone, because I want to see and hear the Band that I admire and don't care if there are more fellas than gielies. ;)
I'm into prog music for about 30 years know, because of mostly good lyrics wich makes you think about what the musicians is trying to tell and good melodies, essentialy the Longtracks. Hm, but I don't like when the music is turning to complex, like with Gong, or King Crimson.
I thing most girlies and some fellas don't like prog, because they can't dance to it.
It's not easy to write in a language that you're not speaking every day :-[
I feel the same way as prog lady, I love prog since I was 15 or so (I actually cried when Fish left Marillion, how pityful is that...) and I've been to many many concerts, some by myself, but I like it more when I can share the passion with someone, most of the time it's my husband, who got into prog partly because of me ! Our kids are now growing up with hearing Arena, Dream Theater, Ayreon and IQ, but we have two boys....
I'm 36 by the way. I'm in it for the great solo's, the unpredictability and the lyrics.
And can we talk about the sort of men that come to these gigs now ? ;)
Mariska
Quote from: Wurensh on Sun, 2005-09-18, 20:02:34
And can we talk about the sort of men that come to these gigs now ? ;)
I believe lots of us have long hair... ;D
judging from the recent gig's I have been to............... there is definately LESS hair now amongst the boys than there was maybe 10-15 years ago!!!!! :P
;DCAx
I was at the gig in Verviers, saturday and..... I so more girls than 2 years ago ;)
Something about 40% of the audience I think...
I know this is something of a sweeping generalisation, but IMHO most women see music as something to have on in the background whilst they're doing something else whereas blokes take music 'seriously' and want to study it in a headphone environment. Hence, prog tends to be a male dominated genre because it's not immediate and/or melodic enough. :)
Quote from: Moonloop on Mon, 2005-09-19, 08:49:44
I know this is something of a sweeping generalisation, but IMHO most women see music as something to have on in the background whilst they're doing something else whereas blokes take music 'seriously' and want to study it in a headphone environment. Hence, prog tends to be a male dominated genre because it's not immediate and/or melodic enough. :)
Agreed. There is alot more going on within the various guises of Prog... :)
Having carried-out an exhaustive survey of 1...
...I can categorically report that hoovering / clothes washing / cooking is carried-out with less "whinging", if Pendragon has been playing on the "Chateau Gelert" jukebox throughout the entire mission.
However, should "Citizen Cain", "Cardiacs", or any other, er, "adventurous" piece-of-prog be played during "The Mission"...
...then "The Mission" quality suffers, if completed at all...
Therefore proving, once-and-for-all, that Arena don't promote "sexism", but Pendragon, er, "do"....!
Er, or something... ??? ::) 8) ;D ::)
Must dash....
My turn on The Hoover, er, apparently...
Yippee................................
Cover me, I'm going in....
:D :D :D Gelert!
That is SO true!
I find I can complete household tasks with piped Pendragon, Jadis, Arena, Shdowland, IQ...........but there are what I call "spikey-prog" bands..........that I could not complete a.........er........ anything......thing.......... if they were being played! In fact I might even strike/consult the union/bugger-off to the shops.....
maybe thats the thing, maybe there is "girl-prog" and "blokie-prog"
::)
After pondering, I've come up with this list of tasks and music I find myself listening to while doing them:
Yard work: Kansas, Dream Theater, IQ, Pallas, Jadis, Rush, Arena
Computer programming: Arena, IQ,
Dishwashing: King Crimson, Renaissance, Strawbs
Riding home on the bus (1-hr commute): Whatever I've just bought and want to really listen to.
Driving in car alone: Any of the above plus stuff like Robin Trower, The Who, Cream, Steve Hackett
Driving in car with wife: Peter Gabriel, late-Collins-era Genesis, Sting, Craig Chaquico, Neal Schon
Quote from: creme anglais on Mon, 2005-09-19, 21:32:49
maybe thats the thing, maybe there is "girl-prog" and "blokie-prog"
::)
Somebody help me....I like girl-prog :o :o
Refer to my reply on the Pendragon forums!
I have given up trying to convert female relatives and friends to try prog and trying to reason as to why so many females either don't like it or won't give it a chance in the first place. It seems to me as though a lot of them are determined not to like it!
I have always been very much in the musical minority among family and friends and I suppose over the past 20 years I have just learned to accept the situation.
I've never actually been to a gig on my own, although I have been to the cinema and some other events many times on my own. Being there unaccompanied wouldn't bother me as long as I could have either reliable transport home afterwards or somewhere very near and convenient to crash (friend's house or whatever).
As for performing household tasks, I prefer to have straightforward raucous rock music or blues blasting out, but when I'm at my computer, I listen to pretty much any of my favoured genres. I do like headphone listening and before I knew Hogweed, most of my prog listening was done on headphones.
Walter Trout's music is excellent for wallpaper stripping and painting, although last time we did painting, we did put Pendragon's Paintbox on ...
Generally Progrock is something for intellectuals.
(Don't flame me for that)
People who listen to progrock look further than their own horizons.
I call this sort of music 'Verder-dan-je-neus-lang-is'-music. (If you want to know what the translation is, ask someone else :D)
Quote from: PH on Sat, 2005-10-01, 19:45:48
I call this sort of music 'Verder-dan-je-neus-lang-is'-music. (If you want to know what the translation is, ask someone else :D)
Farther than your tall nose??? :-\ :-\ :-\
;D
MAD. 8)
Wider than your nose is long....
Quote from: Peter on Sat, 2005-10-01, 20:46:44
Wider than your nose is long....
Gee, thanx ;D ;D ;D
MAD. 8)
It's only what I believe.... don't know if it's correct....
Quote from: Peter on Sat, 2005-10-01, 20:50:52
It's only what I believe.... don't know if it's correct....
Kinda had the same problem a minute ago ;D
MAD. 8)
I've had a girlfriend for just over two months, but we broke up because she wanted time for herself, so she could do wat she liked. I think that's really selfish. I think that people who are thinking a lot about life etc. are less selfish than other people. After my relationship I realised that I don't know very much people who are thinking in the same way as I do. But I think here's the place to be to meet nice people ;). I'm also enjoying figuring out the Arena lyrics, Clive did a good job, writing them
All good points and I particularly like Vanderwoude's bit about "listening to music is like recharging yourself". Brilliant! If people took more time to do that, there might be less violence and misunderstanding on this planet.
I think another point to be made is that a lot of women tend to feel guilty if they take time out to just enjoy themselves, they believe that they ought to be looking after their men or their children, doing housework, etc, and therefore, if they have music on it does tend to be in the background, rather than taking time out just to listen, without doing anything else. It's a whole way of life that has evolved through many generations, and even nowadays with relative equality between men and women, women still carry the guilt factor that they must look after everyone else before taking care of themselves.
So with all that going on in their heads, it's little wonder that women don't sit or lay down listening to complex prog albums and pondering the meanings of the esoteric lyrics, letting the haunting melodies creep up and transport them to another state of consciousness.
I on the other hand have no such guilt and gladly indulge in lots of prog listening! As do the other women on these forums, which is a good thing!
PH wrote..........
"Generally Progrock is something for intellectuals.
(Don't flame me for that)"
again I say is it not weird then that more men than women seem to like prog????
don't worry I am not flaming.............I am laffin me sox off ;D :D ;D
CAx ;)
Intellectuals? Ah but it's the progrockers who say that of course! :D
Women like prog. It's just a matter of opportunity right now and where to find it. There was a time when prog was very popular and lots of woman were always at the gigs. It wasn't as hard to find as it is right now.Â
I'm laffin too dude!
Every young generation believes they are more individualistic than the last. Each are more individualistic than their previous generation in one way shape or form. One would hope and think things are getting better and more evolved. But in this case its really a matter of opportunity and where to find it. As we all know prog is not on a banner in Times Square. You have to look for it fortunately and unfortunately.
Quote from: Xanxtuary on Sat, 2005-10-01, 22:23:11
I think another point to be made is that a lot of women tend to feel guilty if they take time out to just enjoy themselves, they believe that they ought to be looking after their men or their children, doing housework, etc, and therefore, if they have music on it does tend to be in the background, rather than taking time out just to listen, without doing anything else. It's a whole way of life that has evolved through many generations, and even nowadays with relative equality between men and women, women still carry the guilt factor that they must look after everyone else before taking care of themselves.
This is an interesting vision. I think many mature women are thinking like this today. But I'm 'just' 17 years old, and I think my generation is more individual than older ones. I'm hoping that it has to with the fact that not everybody I know has grown up yet. But I fear that this generation always gonna be very individualistic.
Let's hope that there's going to be a radical change of atitude, whatever should trigger this. I'm willing to try my best to live in an harmonic society.
Quote from: Saryna on Sun, 2005-10-02, 10:18:25
There was a time when prog was very popular and lots of woman were always at the gigs. It wasn't as hard to find as it is right now.Â
Is that true? (I'm too young to know ;D ) I seem to remember in an interview Phil Collins attributed the change in Genesis' style between the 70s and 80s to be partly down to the lack of women at gigs during the Gabriel era. But when "Follow you follow me" came out more girls, he claims, started taking more of an interest.
Quote from: Vanderwoude on Sun, 2005-10-02, 12:49:39
This is an interesting vision. I think many mature women are thinking like this today. But I'm 'just' 17 years old, and I think my generation is more individual than older ones. I'm hoping that it has to with the fact that not everybody I know has grown up yet. But I fear that this generation always gonna be very individualistic.
Let's hope that there's going to be a radical change of atitude, whatever should trigger this. I'm willing to try my best to live in an harmonic society.
Just an observation, but I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that people are more individual now, I think that's always been the case. The difference now perhaps is that society is more accepting and tolerant of individualism than it has been in the past ???
Quote from: CygnusX1 on Mon, 2005-10-03, 13:38:46I seem to remember in an interview Phil Collins attributed the change in Genesis' style between the 70s and 80s to be partly down to the lack of women at gigs during the Gabriel era. But when "Follow you follow me" came out more girls, he claims, started taking more of an interest.
The player... ;D
I heard he's had three wives... don't know if he's still married, maybe another one?
Anyway I stand very close to Vanderwoude's point.
But still... what does it have to do with the fact that there are less women and more men at proggigs?
OK, I think generally that people (not necessary women or men or children or grown-ups), people are more individual nowadays.
That's why I like Arena's lyrics. They're so direct:
"Are they so pure? That they should judge me everyday? Am I so low in estimation? That none will hear a word I say?"
People don't think about what they're doing.
To react on Vanderwoude's post...
His ex-girlfriend wasn't thinking about the consequences... She wanted to live for her own, that's ok, but don't try to hold a relationship then.
That's my thought anyway.
And moonloop, if it's always been so bad as it is now, but society is accepting individualism more than in the past, isn't it worse then?
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2005-10-03, 17:20:50
But still... what does it have to do with the fact that there are less women and more men at proggigs?
People don't think about what they're doing.
To react on Vanderwoude's post...
His ex-girlfriend wasn't thinking about the consequences... She wanted to live for her own, that's ok, but don't try to hold a relationship then.
That's my thought anyway.
And moonloop, if it's always been so bad as it is now, but society is accepting individualism more than in the past, isn't it worse then?
I think you're right about my girlfriend.
What I wanted to say with that experience of mine, is that the people that I know of, who are thinking a lot about life like to listen to progrock. Not everybody, but many do. (My ex-girlfriend, btw, is not a fan of progrock ;D) Most progrockfans I know are boys, so maybe men are more rational then women, but it might also have to do with the particular sound of most prog. wich men maybe like more than women. So now I'm curious, if the next girl I will meet with a little bit the same way of thinking as mine, will love prog.
Ekhmm...I am sorry to interrupt this interesting dispute but as far as I know ;D I AM a girl and I take music seriously, love prog rock, started to listen to it on my own (my second halves never did, sadly :) OK I never seriously learned to play music - like music school or something - cos I had other things to do (fortunately and unfortunately) and for other reasons like money. I am speaking for myself but I really do not know why most momen do not listen to progressive music, some of them even do not listen to any kind of "real" music (I am not talking about Shakira and B.Spears), why do they not tend to spend most of their money on music (probabbly because they spen it on clothes and make-up things ;D) or why do they not go to (prog)rock gigs (unless they are not dragged there by their boy-friends:). I can understand the reason why they do not join or create bands cos they have to raise children and run the house and simply do not have the time for touring, writing music, recording and such things. I DO understand that. However, Listening to music is just the matter of taste- have no idea why girls' tastes in music are different - perhaps there must be something with the brain connections ;D (have to examine my brain) Girls on the whole prefer simpler, more melodic or more romantic (perhaps) music. I know some who are crazy about Rammstein, Tool and such ... the music I personnaly do not understand, and I know girls who love much heavier music than progressive - these usually can not digest progressive at the same time :) I like both so my brain connections must be even more complex heeee ;D But I confirm that I do not know any single girl who likes prog music (they usually prefer Sting and U2 - I think they are extremely popular among women), they go to their gigs and buy every record... I am also wondering if this is also a matter of education, background or origin or even what your parents listen(ed) to???mine had little to do with music anyway.... :)what do you think?
I think it's the country of origin which matters a lot (for both sexes). In Greece for instance it was hard for me to find anything except for Greek music which is not proggy I guess... so If you made a poll there it would come out nobody listenes to prog rock there (any Greeks here..?) This is conected with your country background, history and so on. In my country prog rock is relatively popular, not with girls but lots of guys do listen to it - but it is usually limited to Marillion & Genesis hee, (not many people here heard of Arena). We do not like complicated music very much, our bands play very simple rock with simple everyday topics, which is manly about our politics, everyday (dull) life, hopelesness of our government :) poverty and so on... and stuff like that - not very romantic or melodicaly chalenging stuff - but our own productions are extremely popular here, not very proggy either... and they gather big crowds here. Our music is really different from the rest of Europe I guess (like Greek :) that's why almost none of the Polish rock bands is popular outside but extremely popular here... and that's about it :)
Cheers,
Emilia
I was recently at a Mostly Autumn gig, and I was surprised by how many females (quite a lot) were at the gig.
Two of them were my wife and daughter, who have also attended gigs by Jadis, Rick Wakeman, Karnataka. We were hoping to see Blackmores Night at the end of the month but it's sold out, so we are all going to the new Arjen Lucassen project/Band "Stream of Passion" in London early next year.
I saw Mostly Autumn at Mr.Kyps in Poole on their 'Passengers' tour...
They were good! :)
getting a gig for a heavy metal band in Mr kyps is not easy. They don't like that sort of music. Mr Smiths is a little easier for a heavy metal band but still its a bit of a waiting list they've got.
it also helps to have a half decent band which is why i am no making another band. It helps ;D
Maybe you can make a deal with your girlfriend,
You go with her to Robbie Williams, (Let her pay! :P) and take her to Arena or something similar.
Quote from: Higgins III on Sun, 2005-10-09, 00:46:47
getting a gig for a heavy metal band in Mr kyps is not easy. They don't like that sort of music. Mr Smiths is a little easier for a heavy metal band but still its a bit of a waiting list they've got.
...errrm... Mostly Autumn are not a heavy band... ::)
De-de-de-de-de-de-de-de....
De-de-de-de-de-de-de-de....
Why, why, do we suffer each race to believe...
...that no race has been grander.
It seems because through time and space,
though names may change, each face retains the mask it wore....
Quote from: gelert on Mon, 2005-10-10, 20:32:47
De-de-de-de-de-de-de-de....
De-de-de-de-de-de-de-de....
Why, why, do we suffer each race to believe...
...that no race has been grander.
It seems because through time and space,
though names may change, each face retains the mask it wore....
Pardon?
Quote from: keyboardistmatt on Sun, 2005-10-09, 14:44:18
...errrm... Mostly Autumn are not a heavy band... ::)
Ok ok. Don't get all smart on me ;D
Quote from: keyboardistmatt on Mon, 2005-10-10, 20:46:56
Pardon?
I don't know either, but A carved oak table Tells a tale...
... Anyway...
I'm glad we have a few more female fans on the forum now.
It makes that 'Boy:Girl ratio' a little more even! :)
and makes for interesting conversation.
Yep, that's right. 3.3 : 1 atm, that has been worse a while ago!
I wish i knew why it's mostly guys how's into prog, but i think it's a trend that's about to turn.. at least where i live.
I haven't been into it for that long myself, heard my first DT song 3 years ago. Started out listening to the usual stuff on the radio when i was little, then i started listening to heavier and heavier music (Manson, Rammstein etc) before moving on to black metal. Now i'm mostly listening to prog/rock although i enjoy a lot of weird music :)
In the beginning i hardly saw a girl at the concerts, but now it's constantly coming more and more of us, and they really know the music as well - it's not just a random concert :)
Quote from: sotonrobin on Tue, 2005-10-11, 14:29:33
I don't know either, but A carved oak table Tells a tale...
Pardon?
No, but seriously, I was merely refering to the oldest problem in the world i.e."boy meets girl" etc, and trying (but failing) to use "Timetable" as a metaphor / analogy...
Perhaps I should stay in more...?
Quote from: sotonrobin on Tue, 2005-10-11, 14:29:33
I don't know either, but A carved oak table Tells a tale...
I fail to recognise the correlation between a carved oak table, and the progressive combo 'Mostly Autumn'. ???
Well, one day Musty Also-ran will do a track as good as "carved oak table"...er, it 'sez 'ere.
Ok. Just one question...
Where do you get your material? ;D
Quote from: gelert on Thu, 2005-10-13, 19:38:48
Well, one day Musty Also-ran will do a track as good as "carved oak table"...er, it 'sez 'ere.
Then they will be the kings and queens sipping wine from goblets gold.
I weep for the future... ::)
Quote from: keyboardistmatt on Fri, 2005-10-14, 15:23:08
I weep for the future... ::)
And the days knew only strife to tell right from wrong,
Through Lance and Sword... ;D
Quote from: gelert on Fri, 2005-10-14, 18:54:46
And the days knew only strife to tell right from wrong,
Through Lance and Sword... ;D
...AND DAGGER! ;D