So, ELP. I only have a copy of a best of compilation of the first big lawyer firm in prog (the second is of course ABWH ;)) and this seems to be an omission in my collection, since I have all the big classic prog bands of the first era (Genesis, Floyd, Yes, Crimson, Rush, VDGG, Tull, Kansas, Gentle Giant, Camel). From what I've read on the internet I gather that their eponymous debut, Tarkus, Trilogy and especially Brain Salad Surgery are essential stuff.
But... Based on what I know/have heard, this band somehow just doesn't appeal to me. Too clinical, cold, over the top, self-indulgent, no emotion. They seem to embody everything the critics hate about prog, stretching it to the point where I start to understand the critics. I like the acoustic based shorter stuff like From The Beginning, Lucky Man, but the more quintessential ELP stuff like Tarkus and Karn Evil 9 leaves me quite cold.
So what's your opinion, guys? Am I being to harsh on them and should I try harder? I saw Nicky raised the question before in his listening profile thread, but didn't get much response. Nicky, also saw that ELP is in your band list here (http://shattered-room.net/index.php?topic=1015.msg20738#msg20738), like to hear your thoughts!
Quote from: erik on Wed, 2009-02-25, 10:53:07
... stretching it to the point where I start to understand the critics...
;D Erik.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2009-02-25, 11:04:05
;D Erik.
Nicky.
Yes... but that's not helping me much further ::)
OK OK then. Yeah, Erik, I was very much surprised at how much we're in line on this one. OK, you'v made more of an effort to learn titles and technicalities, but else I'd say that our response to this groups is the same. When I was young, some of my friends (yeah, some who liked Floyd and Genesis) had albums by ELP, in fact I remember we even had one or two at home, but I was never emotionally gripped. As you expressed, "It left me cold."
I listed one or two ELP albums on my SL cause I'd like to see how I respond to ELP now, thirty years later. But it's not high priority. If I fall over an album for some 4 Euro (and there's not another Cel..... album around for the same price) ;D
Nicky.
Thanks for sharing your shared thoughts on this one, Nicky. Confirms for me that I can stick to leaving them aside like I have basically been doing and give priority to more interesting stuff.
Basically yes, Erik.
But I know that there are some roomies who have delved much deeper into ELP than you and I. It would be interesting to get some more contributions on this subject ;)
Nicky.
Quote from: erik on Wed, 2009-02-25, 10:53:07
Too clinical, cold, over the top, self-indulgent, no emotion. They seem to embody everything the critics hate about prog, stretching it to the point where I start to understand the critics.
Critics don't like it? Then I can think of no higher recommendation! ;D A music critic is pretty much by definition the opposite of a music lover and, if you're not in the latter camp, you may as well save your money anyway. ;)
I'm not a great fan of ELP, for me the bulk of their output is a little too stark, cold or clinical. That's just my personal reaction, but it doesn't often move me in the way other bands do. I've always put this down to the fact that much of ELP's stuff is classically based, and classical music tends to leave me cold unless I'm really, really, really in the mood.
Ignoring the music for a moment, some of the actual recordings sound somewhat sterile to my ears, as well. There's another parallel with classical works there, in that often one recording of a certain piece has a 'life' to it that another recording of the exact same piece doesn't. One gets me going with the 'air baton' while the other fails to hold my interest. Going back to ELP's music, one of my favourites is 'Pictures at Exhibition' which is a lot more warm and organic, helped no doubt by the audience and live atmosphere. By contrast, I've a piano-only classical version on vinyl somewhere that sucks dry my very will to live. Completely cold!
I'd dismiss the 'self-indulgent' tag as just lazy journalism. All music written by humans is self-indulgent, it's the nature of the beast. Whether it's the full bombastic splendour of a Pink Floyd live experience complete with lights and pigs, or 3 minutes of titty-wiggling x-factor chicks, it's self-indulgence. All art is self-indulgence, not just music.
I've always assumed that a journalist using the term 'self-indulgent' tends to mean 'complex' – especially in relation to prog which is way outside of most of their comfort zones. I can't really subscribe to this dumbed-down sneering, unfortunately, as it dismisses the Mahlers and Wagners of the world as readily as folk dressing up as flowers.
Every time I see some hack trying to use the term 'self-indulgent' to distinguish between one form or piece of music and another, the only thing they communicate to me is their lack of understanding of not just music but also the language of words. Perverse that this seems to be a pre-requisite for the job in most cases instead of a drawback.
Still, most 'critics' tell you more about themselves than the music they're supposed to be writing about. A little self-indulgent, perhaps? ;)
Thank your for this elaborate and eloquent critique of the critics, which I do endorse! I just used the critics to illustrate my aversion to ELP and your basic conclusion about this band is the same as mine and Nicky's:
Quote from: Steve Jones on Wed, 2009-02-25, 13:26:39
I'm not a great fan of ELP, for me the bulk of their output is a little too stark, cold or clinical. That's just my personal reaction, but it doesn't often move me in the way other bands do. I've always put this down to the fact that much of ELP's stuff is classically based, and classical music tends to leave me cold unless I'm really, really, really in the mood.
Quote from: erik on Wed, 2009-02-25, 13:34:27
Thank your for this elaborate and eloquent critique of the critics, which I do endorse! I just used the critics to illustrate my aversion to ELP and your basic conclusion about this band is the same as mine and Nicky's:
He-he! ;D Sorry to wander off the subject of your thread a bit - just one of my pet hates, that's all ;) Anyway, I don't often have the free time to write a full NickyWiki, so make the most of it! ;D
On a more serious note, it occurs to me that the couple of guys I know who are hugely into ELP are also pretty keen on classical stuff, too. Interesting...
Quote from: Steve Jones on Wed, 2009-02-25, 13:48:48
... a full NickyWiki ...
Thanks, Jonesy, I'l take that as a compliment :)
I need some compliments to offset all the insults I got on the Neverboard ;D
Quote from: Steve Jones on Wed, 2009-02-25, 13:48:48
On a more serious note, it occurs to me that the couple of guys I know who are hugely into ELP are also pretty keen on classical stuff, too. Interesting...
Betcha ! I was deeply into classical music for many years, particularly Wagner and Rachmaninoff most recently. Hm, makes me think .....
Yeah, Jonesy, I'm nauseated my most music critics too. There are a couple of good ones on Amazon.com tho - and many excellent reviews written by music lovers.
Nicky.
Quote from: Steve Jones on Wed, 2009-02-25, 13:26:39
... and classical music tends to leave me cold unless I'm really, really, really in the mood.
Try Rachmaninoff's 2. and 3. Piano Concertos. That's smoooth melodic jazz - beautiful 8)
And make sure you'v lit a candle or two, and have a full glass of Blue Chimay or a 20-year whisky or cognac within comfy reach.
That's life when it's best - oooooooo, baby *horns*
Nicky.
Quote from: Steve Jones on Wed, 2009-02-25, 13:26:39
Every time I see some hack trying to use the term 'self-indulgent' to distinguish between one form or piece of music and another, the only thing they communicate to me is their lack of understanding of not just music but also the language of words. Perverse that this seems to be a pre-requisite for the job in most cases instead of a drawback.
*horns* *horns* *horns*
Givit to'em baby *horns* ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2009-02-25, 15:01:00
Try Rachmaninoff's 2. and 3. Piano Concertos. That's smoooth melodic jazz - beautiful 8)
I think we're wandering even further from the OP here but, for what it's worth, I'm more of an Albinoni man on the rare occasion that the fancy takes me.
ELP just isn't my thing, just like Gentle Giant by the way.
From the classic prog bands i do like King Crimson, Genesis, Pink Floyd and Rush but other than that, i don't find it very interesting.
By the way, did you know that if Jimi Hendrix didn't die back then, he would be the guitarist of ELP? That would make it...HELP? ;D
Didn't make that up by the way, this is part of prog-history. :D
Quote from: maddox on Wed, 2009-02-25, 15:59:15
ELP just isn't my thing, just like Gentle Giant by the way.
From the classic prog bands i do like King Crimson, Genesis, Pink Floyd and Rush but other than that, i don't find it very interesting.
By the way, did you know that if Jimi Hendrix didn't die back then, he would be the guitarist of ELP? That would make it...HELP? ;D
Didn't make that up by the way, this is part of prog-history. :D
That would have been mind-blowing. Given that Jimi was about as "un-clinical" as a musician could be, it would've made for some fascinating music, although his style might have scared the hell out of his bandmates. ;D
I do enjoy ELP, but in moderation -- I think I have to agree with the other folks who said they were a bit on the clinical/sterile side, although some of it is a blast to listen to once in a while. In general, I think they're a bit lacking in emotion compared to some of the other old favorites (although there are exceptions -- the song Trilogy comes to mind).
BTW, I also do like Gentle Giant, although I think they're almost a novelty act, and again, best enjoyed just now and then. Their peculiar harmonies are pretty interesting for an occasional listen.
Re: Steve's comments on critics and the term "self-indulgent": sounds like he's hit the nail on the head -- there's nothing wrong with a self-indulgent musician if they create music that you also enjoy indulging in.
Has any of you ever heard of UK? Also a trio with John Wetton, Eddie Jobson and Terry Bozio. Also without guitars but with more melody then ELP, if you ask me.
They only made two albums and one live album and that's a shame really.
Granted, it's very KC influenced but quite good.
Danger Money, one of their albums, sounds like a house. A Tall house. 8)
Quote from: maddox on Wed, 2009-02-25, 16:29:33
Has any of you ever heard of UK? Also a trio with John Wetton, Eddie Jobson and Terry Bozio. Also without guitars but with more melody then ELP, if you ask me.
They only made two albums and one live album and that's a shame really.
Granted, it's very KC influenced but quite good.
Danger Money, one of their albums, sounds like a house. A Tall house. 8)
Indeed I have. I believe you will find it on my listening profile. *horns*
Quote from: maddox on Wed, 2009-02-25, 15:59:15
By the way, did you know that if Jimi Hendrix didn't die back then, he would be the guitarist of ELP? That would make it...HELP? ;D
Didn't make that up by the way, this is part of prog-history. :D
A popular nugget that pops up now and again. Of course, the resultant band could also have been called ELPH. So the band called 'Elf' featuring Ronnie James Dio might have had a different name and not caught the attention of whoever put them as support on the Purple tour. Dio might have ended up working in McDonalds. Blackmore might never have left Purple and formed Rainbow. Sabbath might never have gone on beyond 'Never Say Die'. Jimmy Bain, having not had the career boost of Rainbow, might never have formed Wild Horses with Brian Robertson who could have stayed in Thin Lizzy who then charted a different career path which saw Phil Lynott die of complications arising from pneumonia aged 93.
It's like they say, when one of those little b*st*rd butterflies in the Amazon rainforest starts flapping it's wings, there's a good chance someone, somewhere will end up seriously f***ed. ;) Apart from Phil Lynott, of course, who seemed to come out of it rather well. 8)
Quote from: maddox on Wed, 2009-02-25, 15:59:15
From the classic prog bands i do like King Crimson, Genesis, Pink Floyd and Rush but other than that, i don't find it very interesting.
I'l see if I can pre-empt Iggy here ;D
Again, Mad, I'm sure you're not familiar with Yes' The Ladder, Going For The One, Tormato, and Talk. Cause then you would'v included Yes ;)
Nicky.
Quote from: Steve Jones on Wed, 2009-02-25, 16:38:57
..................Apart from Phil Lynott, of course, who seemed to come out of it rather well. 8)
Hm, think I need a nap.
Seeya guys later :-X
;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2009-02-25, 16:46:25
I'l see if I can pre-empt Iggy here ;D
Again, Mad, I'm sure you're not familiar with Yes' The Ladder, Going For The One, Tormato, and Talk. Cause then you would'v included Yes ;)
Nicky.
Wrong. ;)
Partly that is.
I am familiar with The Ladder and with Talk. The others are residing in oblivion for me but let's face it: Yes was never one of my favourites. Hugely because of Jon Anderson and partly because of Steve Howe. I do like the albums with Trevor Rabin though.
I'm too young for this thread... :(
No you're not. ;)
ELP is from the same era as Genesis and Pink Floyd and since you happen to like them, you could easily check the others too.
Especially King Crimson. I think you would like them. The music that is. :D
Quote from: PH on Wed, 2009-02-25, 20:46:45
I'm too young for this thread... :(
Trust me, it's better than being too old for it. ;)
Quote from: maddox on Wed, 2009-02-25, 20:48:55
Especially King Crimson. I think you would like them. The music that is. :D
Ooohh... but I know of King Crimson! ;)
They are excellent! 8) Still have to buy a couple of albums to show my respect.
Quote from: Manatee on Wed, 2009-02-25, 20:50:17
Trust me, it's better than being too old for it. ;)
Yeah... :P ;)
Of course I've heard the odd song here and there.
And I once did a small research after Gentle Giant. I found that really interesting.
ELP and Gentle Giant are on my discovery list now.
(For some reason I type ELO when I want to type ELP... Nice band and nice music too!)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2009-02-25, 16:46:25
I'l see if I can pre-empt Iggy here ;D
Again, Mad, I'm sure you're not familiar with Yes' The Ladder, Going For The One, Tormato, and Talk. Cause then you would'v included Yes ;)
Nicky.
Ta Nicky. ;D
I can never criticise people for not liking Yes as music is definitely an each to their own.
Many people seem to dislike Yes due to Jon Anderson's vocals/lyrics and I have heard people say the dislike Jethro Tull due to Ian Anderson.
I myself don't like listening certain bands due to the singer.
However it is the first time (take a step forward Mad ;D) that I have heard anyone mention Mr Howe as a reason.
As to classical music I grew up with it and although am not fanatical enjoy the more popular classics from time to time.
ELP I can take or leave but enjoy Trilogy and Pictures at Exhibition the most.
Quote from: Iggy on Wed, 2009-02-25, 21:03:16
Many people seem to dislike Yes due to Jon Anderson's vocals/lyrics and I have heard people say the dislike Jethro Tull due to Ian Anderson.
Well, disliking Ian Anderson would be a very good reason to dislike Jethro Tull (not that I'm condoning such a thing, mind you) since for all intents and purposes, he IS Jethro Tull (maybe with a small side salad of Martin Barre?).
QuoteI myself don't like listening certain bands due to the singer.
That's definitely true for me as well. James La<insert your favorite cheese here> manages to keep me from enjoying most DT songs. The fact that I've yet to be lynched for this is a testament to the forgiving natures of the Roomies since that may be almost as serious a crime as not liking JD and coke. ;)
Quote from: PH on Wed, 2009-02-25, 20:58:29
ELP and Gentle Giant are on my discovery list now.
(For some reason I type ELO when I want to type ELP... Nice band and nice music too!)
I'm sticking to ELO and will leave ELP aside for now ;D
Do check out Gentle Giant, cool band!
Quote from: maddox on Wed, 2009-02-25, 20:48:55
I think you would like them. The music that is. :D
Right, Mad, we have to guide Paxi's attention ;D
Quote from: PH on Wed, 2009-02-25, 20:58:29
(For some reason I type ELO when I want to type ELP... Nice band and nice music too!)
Yeah, interesting, ELO and ELP, despite being only a third-order notch different in name, are opposites in music: ELO is very untechnical and very melodic.
Nicky.
Quote from: Iggy on Wed, 2009-02-25, 21:03:16
Many people seem to dislike Yes due to Jon Anderson's vocals/lyrics, and I have heard people say they dislike Jethro Tull due to Ian Anderson.
Seems to support my thesis *horns*
Nicky.