Twilight of the Bands

[bluepony]

Paco's movin into shadowland for real here.

Why, because he tells us where to download free music? 

[Constable Hogweed]

Just an idea to throw out at my fellow proggers here!
When Arena release the next album, what if we all bought TWO copies, I'm sure most of us could manage that!
One CD for your player, and a nice shiny unopened one just in case the other one gets f*cked up somehow!
This would obviously double the amount of sales for Arena!   ( and also for us to do the same for other bands like Pendragon IQ etc....These guys don't release albums every 6 months or even every year so it shouldn't't be a strain on the pocket )

I for one would be willing to do this - think about it, just an extra 12 quid or so and it will be helping to keep the bands we love alive!
You could even make a point of buying the extra CD as a gift for a mate - It's good to give yeah?

As for the whole downloading issue, the following is a copy and paste job of my views on the IQ forum   ( For what it's worth )
 
   I have come into this discussion late but have been viewing this subject with interest!
For a start the home taping thing from the 80's is an entirely different matter altogether, as there was no internet and therefore no way to get free music en masse.
You had to physically know somebody with the original vinyl/tape to be able to get a copy - This i admit i used to do myself, but there wasn't an endless stream of people with music for me to tape off, and how many of us would be honest enough to say that we were satisfied with a copy of an album that we got hold of via Joe who got a copy via Jim who got a copy via Jane?

Smaller bands like the ones some of you purport to love ( IQ ) still have day jobs and the running of a cottage industry alongside that is NOT easy!
There are still bills to be paid both in the artists domestic lives and in the running of these small labels - A REAL DOUBLE WHAMMY if you like!

In non musician terms it amounts to being a salesman on a commission and that salesman having a hell of a lot of his stock pilfered and being expected to just get on with it because you will always have thieves in society!

The internet is a double edged sword - It has its positives and negatives
One of the negatives being this culture of I WANT AND I WANT NOW! attitude, and until people wake up to the fact that this is DEADLY SERIOUS, we are going to lose the bands we love - Like it or not ( As MAJOR label Genesis would say )
And before anyone says that it doesn't hurt artists signed to major labels like the aforementioned Genesis, i would say.....probably not that much, but it doesn't make it right does it?

But it DEFINITELY hurts the likes of IQ, Pendragon, Arena and other small/self label bands and therefore these bands should have our support on this!

I for one want to be buying albums by the likes of IQ/Pendragon, Arena etc in 10 years time, but if this malaise continues or indeed gets worse i really fear that this will no longer be possible, and i would refuse to put on a face of denial and buy albums by Keane or Radiohead and try to convince myself that i am listening to prog!

[PH]

Feel free to visit me anytime! 
(And you don't even know what car I'm driving...) 

I don't need to know. I just need to know where to find your house.

[bluepony]

I don't need to know. I just need to know where to find your house.

And...? The CDs wouldn't be there - they're in the car with me! 

On the other hand, if I had to replace them it would certainly help raising the income for Shadowland. 

[johninblack]

Here is what Nick Barret (Pendragon) has to say,,,

OK...so , last week we checked out a few stats for you, and this is where we are . There is a site called Mininova, where you can see the Past And Presence DVD [not cd!!] has been downloaded illegally 810 times [Losing us £17,000 gross before costs if the same people were to buy it from our website].

Given that over all sales of the Past And Presence dvd is probably gonna hit 3,000 copies absolute tops, that is about a quarter of lost sales...on this one site alone!!!
They also show figures of approx 1,400 downloads illegally of Believe,
[Losing us about £14,000 gross if the same people were to buy it from our website] and more on our other albums too. Given that we have sold 18,000 Believes you can see that this makes a big dent in us getting paid, don't forget this is one one site alone!

Some other illegal download stats for you are:
Site x And Now Everybody To The Stage DVD - 1,930 downloads
Site x Believe - 1,291 downloads
Site x Past And Presence DVD - 1,192 downloads
Site y The World - 1,829 downloads
Site z Past And Presence DVD -174


This is getting more and more insane. And as we slip further and further into debt just trying to keep going , I really wonder how these people can do this and sleep at night.

On a good note we have managed to get Mini Nova to scrap 13 titles from their database, now we're gonna try and hit the others!

I am an extremely determined person, who will fight tooth and nail to the end to keep Pendragon alive, but this is sooooooo disheartening, when I sit here and think about the kind of effort that needs to go into making the new album, trying to get the absolute best melodies I can, get lyrics that are about things that matter, lyrics/music that will [hopefully] move people, digging deep into my pockets to find fresh ideas that will inspire me, and hopefully become entrenched in new music that will uplift and inspire people...I sit here and think, what's the sodding point?

I know from talking to Martin from IQ, before announcing leaving IQ he had become completely disillusioned with this whole records sales/downloading situation, Clive has put something on the Arena forum too.

[bellanova]

It is just so damn annoying! if you love a band so much, why wouldnt you pay good money to buy dvds and cds. I dont even know how to download stuff and if i did i wouldnt do it. I agree with Nick. How can these people sleep at night? I dont really consider these downloaders as fans, just a pain in the bum!!!!

[bluepony]

I totally agree! I never downloaded any songs from the internet (except when e.g. there were sound samples on a band's homepage, as I consider this being rather 'official' and legal), and even if I did I would make sure that it's from a page where the artists get paid!!

In fact, I just ordered some CDs from the Verglas store (as a present for a friend who doesn't know Arena yet - tsk, tsk, we have to change that, don't we?!  ), so I hope I will sleep very well tonight! 

[bellanova]

Good on you girl!! I managed to convert two people too and they bought cds!

[bluepony]

Well done! 

I'll work on that as well - just that my friend doesn't know that he will be 'converted' soon. 

[mdread666]

...............coming out of lurking mode to add my thoughts..............

OK, it seems to me that there are 2 main ponits here that we all agree on.

(I did originally start off by joining in the ranting and raving about illegal downloading and the effects of the internet on music but where to stop ? All I will say is that in my opinion the internet has been a good vehicle to get our type of music to new listeners but has indeed been a 'dagger through the heart of music' with the number of illegal file sharing sites that operate, depriving the artists of the revenue they so richly deserve).

Firstly, illegal downloading IS killing a music, well at least the type of music that we all like and
secondly, the true fans would willingly part with more cash to get their hands on more official band merchandise and more music.

So what to do ?

A suggestion I have made before is that when Arena tour they record each show and put them up on their web site for downloading for a small fee (in a similar way to what Metallica do !) I bet the majority of people of this list what willingly pay money for this. Surely this would then raise some welcome income for the band at a nominal cost. Perhaps to ensure the most downloads are made the band should then try to vary their set lists across the tour and have say one particular track that is unique to a particular gig, or perhaps throw in some surprises (Ring of Roses or Grendel for starters !!). It would also mean that the fans would still feel attached to Arena in a live setting as the tour this year was somewhat limited to say the least, although I do appreciate the resons why (only one UK gig - not good !)

Another point I would to make is about a fan club.

Like many people on this list I used to belong to The Cage and was perfectly happy to pay for this privilege, in return for receiving the fan club only CD's and Cage mag plus the opportunity to purchase (non officially released) Arena merchandise (DVD's etc). However the fan club was discontinued as the band wanted to reach a more global audience and felt that the use of the internet and an official web site was a better way of doing this so perhaps in some respects have you shot yourselves in the foot Clive!? (As a side issue I should mention that when it was announced that the Cage was going to be wrapped up that a lot of members had paid for a full year's membership but didn't actually get anything like that. As a result it was offered that by way of compensation we would receive a copy of Contagion - The Max free if we registered by e-mail - I registered on Jan 7th 2005, so in some ways you owe it to us Clive to get this finally done as we have effectively already paid for this  )
I had thought that when it was launched that online Arena would make it easier to get closer to the band and find out more information about what's going on in the world of Arena sooner but personally I don't feel that is the case. There is only Clive and ocassionally Mick that contribute to this forum - nothing else from the rest of the band despite promises that they'd would arrive soon. Also, it is nearly a year since the last Verglas Newsletter was sent out (September 28th) and I feel that Arena as a band are not keeping up with the flow of information that us fans deserve/desire. I can fully understand some reasons for this as all the guys have other things on their plate but I guess it's a case of having more important things to do than to keep updating the web site/posting on the forum. At least when the Cage was running it was down to other guys (Erik and friends) to gather info and send it out.

So I ask if the idea of a new (fee based) fan club (with some exclusive material) could be something else to consider, to run alongside the web site which again would raise more revenue with minimal input (well, from the band anyway) ?

Finally, I assume that the band actually receive more money for sales through the Verglas web site so perhaps you should encourage more fans to buy Arena releases through the site, by offering the chance of having purchases signed fully by the band. I now when I've order in the past I've always sent an e-mail to ask if they could be signed and you've always obligued - thanks (although only Clive and Mick sign - what about the other guys ?) but allowing this as an option would again I feel generate more sales through the site and therefore more money to the band with minimal effort. This is infact something that Chris Caffrey (Savatage guitarist/solo artist) offers I have in the past ordered direct from him and willingly paid a higher price (as it's shipped from the US) for something that is personally signed to me, something that a true fan would pay extra for (well, I do !)

So food for thought ?!?

BTW currently playing Contagion, just finished Immortal ? and before that The Visitor.

Oh well I fell a need to lurk again so for now.......................ahhh..........................

[guig]

Alright, but how about the rest of us who don't live in the UK?

What about those of us who live in the UK but don't want to be ripped off in London. play more regional gigs.

[Stuart]

What about those of us who live in the UK but don't want to be ripped off in London. play more regional gigs.

While I for one would love a Scottish gig, it can only happen if enough tickets can be shifted. It is far easier to stick to the 'stock' venues and hope others will travel there when the cost of a poorly attended gig is just too much for a band to bear.

Look at It Bites. One well attended set of gigs last year, and the first time out this year we stand in a mostly empty field in Fife, and now John Mitchell has to go onto the forums to drum up enough people to keep the CRS gig alive this weekend. We are sinking in a sea of apathy.

It would be nice to think that the 'cost' of downloads could come to bands who deserve it, but the simple fact is only a small %age of those downloading would buy if that was the only option.

I've looked at what my love of 'prog' costs me each year. Between CD/DVD purchases and the trips to down south to see the bands (who seldom come up here), it easily ends up over 1,000 pounds a year. I don't grudge it, I choose to spend my money that way, but the trouble is so much of that money goes to the railways, airlines, hotels, promoters, not the band.

Events like Summers End are a great way to publicise 14 bands over 1 weekend and give fans great value for money. Maybe more of this kind of collaboration would help. Have the bands co-promote it too and keep more of the cash. Offer lots of merchandise too at these events, and as has been mentioned before, sell mixes of the gig.

I really feel for the bands today, as it must simply be so soul destroying to put absolutely everything into what you love and find you are ripped off at every turn.

[Nicky007]

It is just so damn annoying! if you love a band so much, why wouldnt you pay good money to buy dvds and cds. I dont even know how to download stuff and if i did i wouldnt do it. I agree with Nick. How can these people sleep at night? I dont really consider these downloaders as fans, just a pain in the bum!!!!

I think that Bella has a point here. True fans of prog groups are bright enough to be aware of the limited income of their groups, and therefore I reckon that in general fans will gladly pay properly for their music.

The people downloading for free I reckon are either young people who don't have much money, or unconscionable people who wouldn't anyway spend much on music.

So I don't think that the loss in income for the groups is nearly as big as it's being made to be.

Nicky.

[bluepony]

So I don't think that the loss in income for the groups is nearly as big as it's being made to be.

Well, maybe not, but I can understand Nick's point of view. Of course it must make you angry when you see that people download your songs for free and you don't get paid for the hard work you put into these songs. On the other hand, how many of those downloaders would actually buy the album? (I guess we'll never know...)

[bellanova]

I dont have much money as ive been unemployed for ages but i would spend my last penny on a cd or a gig because its what i love!

[bluepony]

So would I - so all we need to do now is get the bands to give us a chance to do so! 

[Nicky007]

Maybe you should try playing some Arena for your boss while he's eating his lunch, Bluey.

Nicky.

[bluepony]

Er - no, I don't think that would work. He's very much into all this latino stuff ('Andy & Lucas' being one of his favourites I think) and likes the typical charts song (i. e. not longer than 3 to 4 minutes - an 'attention span' problem?). He listened to some of the music I like, but definitely didn't like it.  Yet he earns enough money to support a whole bunch of financially stuggling prog bands! 

[ironcow2103]

if Clive and Co will rerelease the Shadowland albums, I'll be happy to buy them! As it seems that they're out of print...

Oddly Shadowland are my 'band of the moment' having spent last week wandering the streets of Paris with my 29 Shadowland tracks on shuffle on the iPod - some bloody good stuff there, hadn't listended to it for a long time (did myself a "Best Of" CD mix  for the car and subjected the wife and son to it!!).

If the CD's aren't for reprint how about as downloadable purchases? No great overheads and money coming into the Verglas coffers (I'd like the Strangers on a Train ones please - not paying the £40 someone on Amazon wanted, I'd rather the money went to Verglas not some opportunist).

Steve

[kmorse]

"Maybe that also spells the end for Bagpipes and Fender Rhodes Pianos .... some pet dislikes there (sorry if you like them!)..."

Gee, and I going to post some mp3s of my bagpipe-and-Fender Rhodes arrangements of my favorite Arena tunes.

[Appelmoes??]

Just an idea to throw out at my fellow proggers here!
When Arena release the next album, what if we all bought TWO copies, I'm sure most of us could manage that!
One CD for your player, and a nice shiny unopened one just in case the other one gets f*cked up somehow!

I think that's doable, but I would rather give away my second disc at someones birthday. In that way I might also get a new person to like Arena.

[Nick B]

So I don't think that the loss in income for the groups is nearly as big as it's being made to be.

Nicky.

oh really???

you're 'avin a frikkin laugh aren't you??

Well here are some figures for you....


Jan 96 Dec 96   55,796 units Masquerade year
Jan 97 Dec 97 23,934 units
Jan 98  Dec 98 13,217 units
Jan 99  Dec 99 15,439 units
Jan 2000  Dec 2000   5,408 units
Jan 2001 Dec 2001  24,582 units Not Of year
Jan 2002 Dec 2002  8,423 units
Jan 2003 Dec 2003  4,150 units
Jan 2004 Dec 2004 3,596 units
Jan 2005 Dec 2005 11,630 units     Believe year [a lot of Believe sales  were spread across to following year ]
Jan 2006 Dec 2006 10,873 units       
Jan 2007 Oct 2007 3,872 units 

You can see sales have slumped drastically since 2001 [when downloading took a hold], even though they were very steady until 3 years after Masquerade even with very little activity from the band for this period.
However even though in the last two years Pendragon have done the biggest tour ever [2006] , played a number of 'profile' festivals, released 4 dvds, done masses or promo [interviews, reviews, web activity, radio interviews, national UK television  etc] .....Cd/DVD sales have seriously headed South!!!

Pendragon made a profit of £6,000 for end of year accounts  2006...that isn't enough to live on. Yet illegal downloading of our cds and dvds accounts for tens of thousands or potential lost sales, from an increasing amount of people who simply don't want to pay for Cds/dvds.
We've heard people say,  [most of whom haven't got a clue about this market at all] quite arrogantly, well you've got to adapt and diversify to compete, but it's pretty hard to compete with 'free'! 

But it's more promotion for the band? These 'new fans' certainly don't turn up to concerts if you pro rate the amount of people that download our stuff there is no increase whatsoever in our gig attendances.

You can roughly divide artists into 3 categories:

1. Big bands like Radiohead, Prince  don't give a hoot about downloading, they are so angry with record companies they are thrilled to be able to finally tell EMI where to stick their record contract. But they have enough fanbase to sell out stadiums, sell masses of merchandise/t.shirts and if for example, Radiohead sell 100,000 [a fraction of their sales base] of this double gatefold thing that they are doing at £40, that's £4 million in the bank! ...with No record company rake off. These guys can make it work for them.
[I assume you saw that about 60% of the people who downloaded their album for free, paid nothing at all for it, on their 'pay what you like scheme'?]

2. Small bands don't give a hoot...they're just glad someone can be bothered to download them.

3. It's the middle bands that are being hit, Pendragon, IQ , Arena, Mostly Autumn, Marillion, Fish, Camel,  all yer faves...
These are the independant lablels mostly owned by the bands themselves that are struggling, they just aren't  big enough to seriously diversify [like Radiohead] and not small enough to warrant getting a full time job, as the time they put into their bands IS full time.


What about touring? At our level the gig scene is in serious danger of overkill, take the Boerderij in Holland, there are at least 6 prog acts due to play there in 5 weeks running up to Christmas, most fans just can't afford to see all those gigs.
The audience is getting watered down, talk to the promoters and they will tell you the same,'toooooooo many prog bands touring!!'
To make a living out of touring, at our level? You're lucky if you don't make a loss.

T.shirts! Ah now ya talking, this is about the only area you can bring in decent income, we grossed £17,000 on merch sales on the Believe tour, it cost £8,000 to make the items, £2,500 VAT to pay, £1,000 for the merch guy's wages , so £5,500 profit..HOORAY!!.....which went to pay some of the losses of the tour...BOO!

People who believe at our level they are gonna go out and make money from tours and sell millions of t.shirts have got their heads up their asses..

Most prog musicians at our kind of level who are surviving at the moment do so because they have got their money from another source. Period.


If you don't believe me that the income is being seriously hit by downloading you can come and look at our accounts!

Nick x

[Bupie]

Most prog musicians at our kind of level who are surviving at the moment do so because they have got their money from another source. Period.


If you don't believe me that the income is being seriously hit by downloading you can come and look at our accounts!

Nick x

I do believe you ... and it's sad 

[Nicky007]

you're 'avin a frikkin laugh aren't you??

I love you too, Nick 

Yeah, I'm real sorry that the life of a serious rock musician is so hard - honestly. I'm tryin to help by writing reviews and tugging my fellow roomies at the b* or whatever. Unfortunately I can't help financially, because I'm a chronic unemployee and my economy is also a f*d up mess - and I do need the occasional CD and beer.

But imo the main purpose of places like the Room is to support our wonderful musicians, so let's keep the wheels spinnin.

Keep it up, Nick and Clive and all you other great musicians 

Nicky.

[PH]

It's not the downloading, but the attitude towards downloading that is a problem.
People downloading everything they can get their hands on, are NO FANS.

First two roads:
Download ---> like? ---> buy
Download ---> shit? ---> not buy (and of course delete from the harddisk, what's the point of still having it there anyway?)

There's also the third road:
Download ---> like? ---> not buy

This is the WRONG road.

Now, what you are saying is that EVERYONE who downloads music, takes the third road. This is NOT true.
People who CARE about music, will ALWAYS buy the music they love!
Download with care!

Forgive me for saying this but saying that downloading makes sales decrease is PURE BULLSHIT!!
Not buying an album makes sales decrease. (or rather, "not increase", you can't always win, right? )
And is downloading the same as "not buying"?
*looks at first two roads*
No.


So, to solve the problem you have to think of something else.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to do with posting things like that here. I think you have to try to reach the careless downloaders, but I have absolutely no idea how you could do that.
The main thing we're doing here is just talking about music and giving each other recommendations.


-Paco