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Other Stuff => Musicians' Corner => Topic started by: PH on Thu, 2007-10-18, 09:20:21

Title: What is music?
Post by: PH on Thu, 2007-10-18, 09:20:21
I had an interesting discussion with my dad a couple of days ago.
He said to me that music consists of rhythm, melody and harmony and that with that in mind, Prog can't always be classified as music.

He even said that when those three elements aren't present, or when one of them is failing, it is crap.
To him the song One For The Vine from Genesis isn't music, because there's a part where the first bar of a certain melody doesn't fit with the rest of the song.
In other words, when you start with 4/4 you can't just change it to 3/4 without getting onto the same rhythm again, because you'd miss a piece of a bar.

I don't know if I made myself clear with this...

Anyway, it frustrates me that my dad puts music into a format of rules, because I think that you can like music even when it doesn't hold onto rules (as is much the case with prog music of course!).

Maybe we can have an interesting discussion about it. Reply whatever comes up in your mind about this subject.


-Paco
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Thu, 2007-10-18, 11:42:10
Paco, I'd like to start by saying that I think it's great that you throw all these interesting thoughts into the room. I might not always respond immediately, and sometimes I might not contribute anything at all, but I always read your posts thoroughly and have your thoughts in the back of my mind. I have the impression that there are at least ten other roomies who do like I.

We also go through different phases in life; sometimes we feel full of pep and want to share all our stuff with others, other times we feel flat and wrapped up into ourselves.

Right now there are two things I'd like to say: Notes don't need to have a tight rhythm to be experienced a music. Prog usually does have a tight rhythm, but think of a pan flute or a violin playing solo in a church or out in nature: If the player loosens up the rhythm, the music attains a dreamy or spiritual atmosphere, but is still experienced as music. Here the word pulse may be more appropriate than rhythm.

The second thing is that music can easily have changing measures within one song or movement, e.g. changing between 4/4 and 3/4. Already Johann Sebastian Bach changed measures in his pieces in The Well-Tempered Keyboard. Beethoven took up on it and did it more often in his compositions. Dream Theater do it a lot, and I think that you and I at least can agree that this is music of the highest order.

Changing measures makes the music more complicated, but often more expressive and lasting.

Think of Pink Floyd's Money: This song freaked out people initially, because they couldn't get what was so different. The thing is that the singing part of Money is in 7/4, and then all of a sudden Dave goes off into one of his most fabulous solos in 4/4, changing the character entirely. I think that even Paco senior would agree on this.

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Thu, 2007-10-18, 13:05:25
In fact, harmony isn't either an absolute requirement. Think of Bach's wonderful Suites for cello solo, or a flute playing an imaginative passage out in nature.

If it's a well-known melody, the listener creates his/her own harmonies along the way, e.g. if someone plays Auld Lang Syne on a bagpipe or violin.

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Thu, 2007-10-18, 16:56:47
To me music is just an expression of emotions or ideas that uses sound in a different way then talking. So it could be a kid banging on a cooking pot with a spoon, because he's enjoying it, or a person playing what he/she feels on a violin, or someone walking down the street humming. To me that's all music.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: bluepony on Thu, 2007-10-18, 20:47:20
Paco, I had similar discussions with my dad several times, and his definition of what is music (mainly all the - more or less famous - bands from the 60s, because that was the time when he was a teenager) and what isn't (generally every band that came up later than 1980) makes me think that these definitions vary quite a bit with each generation. For example, for our parents "our" music is just noise - but for our parents' parents, "their" (i. e. our parents) music was noise just the same.

I don't know how to put this any better, but I trust you know what I mean... if you ever heard some oldtimer ranting about "this terrible thin guy screaming his heart out" (= Mick Jagger ;D ), I bet you know exactly!
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Thu, 2007-10-18, 20:58:57
Mick who?? ???



;D Just kidding!
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: PH on Thu, 2007-10-18, 21:02:08
Quote from: bluepony on Thu, 2007-10-18, 20:47:20Paco, I had similar discussions with my dad several times, and his definition of what is music (mainly all the - more or less famous - bands from the 60s, because that was the time when he was a teenager) and what isn't (generally every band that came up later than 1980) makes me think that these definitions vary quite a bit with each generation. For example, for our parents "our" music is just noise - but for our parents' parents, "their" (i. e. our parents) music was noise just the same.
I know what you mean. And I also recognise that in my situation of course. But that's not really what I was trying to say.
I'm not talking about what kind of music you like, but the definitions of music.
There's music that I don't like, but wether I like it or not, I know it IS called music. We sometimes say jokingly "You call that music?" but we know it is music, but just music we don't like. Technically it is music.
That's the three elements I was talking about earlier.

But music isn't only technical...
There's also the emotional side of music.

My dad holds very much onto those rules of music (technical), while I think that music can cross the borders or sometimes partly exist outside those rules as long as it sounds good (emotional).

Quote from: bluepony on Thu, 2007-10-18, 20:47:20I don't know how to put this any better, but I trust you know what I mean... if you ever heard some oldtimer ranting about "this terrible thin guy screaming his heart out" (= Mick Jagger ;D ), I bet you know exactly!
Hehehehe ;D


-Paco
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Appelmoes?? on Thu, 2007-10-18, 21:05:18
I;m lucky to have an openminded mother. She doesn't always like my music, but at least she doesn't call it rubbish or noise. She actually likes some of the "easier" songs from Nightwish, Within Temptation and I bet she would like the mellow bits of Arena too.
My dad is way to stubborn to admit he might like it, so to him it's all just noise... :-\
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: PH on Thu, 2007-10-18, 21:08:26
I should add that I can appreciate technical music ("the song's not good, but wow he can play that guitar!"), that I love emotional music ("he can't play very well, but still the song is brilliant!") and of course the combination (progressive rock ;)).
My dad only loves a combination of technique and emotion, although he can appreciate strictly technical music to some extend, but won't listen to it if I wouldn't play it for him.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: bluepony on Fri, 2007-10-19, 08:51:07
Quote from: PH on Thu, 2007-10-18, 21:02:08
I know what you mean. And I also recognise that in my situation of course. But that's not really what I was trying to say.
I'm not talking about what kind of music you like, but the definitions of music.
I think I understand what you said and meant with your "definition of music", I just wanted to point out that the average music listener (i.e. those people who listen to, let's say, what's in the charts) usually doesn't take the trouble of analyzing the music they're listening to - they usually just categorize as "like it" or "argh, what a noise" (my experience - the latter always referring to the kind of music I like...). The only people I've met who like to dig a bit deeper into the music are usually people who studied music - or prog fans. (Well, maybe this means that I've met only the wrong people so far? :o  ;) )

Quote from: PH on Thu, 2007-10-18, 21:02:08
There's music that I don't like, but wether I like it or not, I know it IS called music.
Yep, I totally agree to that!

Quote from: PH on Thu, 2007-10-18, 21:02:08
My dad holds very much onto those rules of music (technical), while I think that music can cross the borders or sometimes partly exist outside those rules as long as it sounds good (emotional).
Hehehehe ;D
Well... he's not a music teacher by any chance?  ;)
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-10-19, 10:56:51
Quote from: bluepony on Thu, 2007-10-18, 20:47:20
Paco, I had similar discussions with my dad several times, and his definition of what is music (mainly all the - more or less famous - bands from the 60s, because that was the time when he was a teenager) and what isn't (generally every band that came up later than 1980) makes me think that these definitions vary quite a bit with each generation. For example, for our parents "our" music is just noise - but for our parents' parents, "their" (i. e. our parents) music was noise just the same.

There certainly is this tendency, Bluey, but if we take the really excellent, innovative, thoroughly composed music, then it has a lasting appeal that spans over generations and centuries. Everyone in our times who enjoys music beyond the banal can appreciate Beethoven's symphonies, 200 years after they were composed, and if proggies got into Rachmaninoff's piano concertos, they'd be real surprised at how much of what we call prog today was already present there.

We can also take Pink Floyd. These guys made music that was so amazing and profound that not only do millions of people of my age still relish it, but even many youths of Paco's generation, if they're sufficiently exposed to it, go for it.

So in the last end it's a question of quality. Hit factory pop flashes for a moment, quality music lives "forever".

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: bluepony on Fri, 2007-10-19, 13:12:18
That doesn't answer Paco's question, though...  ;)
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-10-19, 13:34:04
Maybe not, Bluey, but it poses some new interesting questions  ;D

I only answer questions that interest me  8)

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: bluepony on Fri, 2007-10-19, 15:58:53
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-10-19, 13:34:04
I only answer questions that interest me  8)

Nicky.

Ah... that explains quite a bit!  ;)
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: maddox on Sun, 2007-10-21, 15:45:37
Basically i believe that there are two kinds of music:

A) music that you listen to in the background, like for instance at work or doing some homework or whatever, and

B) music that you endure. With that i mean really listen to it. Exploring all the tiny details in the song and album and discover new things everytime you listen to it.
When i listen to music i usually take out the booklet and read every lyric and try to find the meaning of that particular lyric and what the band means with that song.
Because of the fact that i have a daughter i have to pick my moments but i usually listen to 'my' music behind the computer with the comfort of an earphone.

Generally i have to say that music is personal. What you think is music can be noise for some and visa versa. But what you never should do is question that. For instance, some people at work really love Dutch music, you know like F. Bau... and BZN. And although i don't, i think it's good. They find their taste is good. The only thing i ask in return is being granted with the same respect.  ;)


Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-22, 14:00:01
Yes, Maddox, live and let live, but among us, I think we should be allowed to talk about higher and lower quality within music.

The quality of music is very much proportional to the effort the musicians put into creating it, and dependent on the priorities they have: money and fame versus originality and perfection.

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: bluepony on Mon, 2007-10-22, 14:46:43
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-22, 14:00:01
The quality of music is very much proportional to the effort the musicians put into creating it, and dependent on the priorities they have: money and fame versus originality and perfection.
Interesting... so what happens if musicians aren't very good on their instruments, but put a lot of effort into their music?
(According to Nicky's definition, it makes their music "good" music, at least as long as they have the right priorities). ;)
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:18:41
Well, if they're not good enough, they simply have to practice more, study more, and try harder. That's pure and simple Darwinism, Bluey.

The reason why Dream Theater is the greatest band in the world is because the guys practiced like maniacs in their youth - they still practice a lot, in fact - and studied and practiced virtually all the existing music in the world, and because they stick together in spite of all their crises (e.g. Mike being an alcoholic for many years, no longer fortunately, and remember, Kevin left, wasn't pressed out).

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: bluepony on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:24:09
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:18:41
Well, if they're not good enough, they simply have to practice more, study more, and try harder. That's pure and simple Darwinism, Bluey.
LOL! I'll tell my brother and his bandmates...  ;)

Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:18:41
The reason why Dream Theater is the greatest band in the world is because the guys practiced like maniacs in their youth - they still practice a lot, in fact - and studied and practiced virtually all the existing music in the world, and because they stick together in spite of all their crises (e.g. Mike being an alcoholic for many years, no longer fortunately, and remember, Kevin left, wasn't pressed out).
Sorry, but I disagree (being fully aware that some people will stone me to death for what I will say now) - I don't think DT is the greatest band in the world. They may be technically very good musicians, but their music just doesn't 'click' with me...
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:32:47
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:24:09
LOL! I'll tell my brother and his bandmates...  ;)

Tell'm to hide away the chillum and whisky and work instead. A couple'o beers wont hurt though  ;D

Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:24:09
Sorry, but I disagree (being fully aware that some people will stone me to death for what I will say now) - I don't think DT is the greatest band in the world. They may be technically very good musicians, but their music just doesn't 'click' with me...

That's your problem (read: challenge), not mine, Bluey  ;)

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: bluepony on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:39:25
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:32:47
That's your problem (read: challenge), not mine, Bluey  ;)

Nicky.
Nope, not a problem at all for me!  ;)
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Peter on Mon, 2007-10-22, 17:35:00
Yesm.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: bluepony on Tue, 2007-10-23, 09:36:22
Quote from: Peter on Mon, 2007-10-22, 17:35:00
Yesm.
Beg your pardon??
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-10-23, 09:48:29
"Yes ma'm" is my guess.

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: bluepony on Tue, 2007-10-23, 10:55:26
Could be... (I hate those abbreviations!)
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-10-23, 12:59:47
Could also be "Yes, me too". These are all capspecs.

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: PH on Tue, 2007-10-23, 15:38:47
Or Peter means Yesism. It means that bands are influenced by the great progband Yes.

Peter thinks bands that are influenced by Yes are making true music.


-Paco
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Peter on Tue, 2007-10-23, 23:59:26
Sorry for intercepting that discussion with such an absolutely unqualified comment, actually. It was a weak try to express the feeling that the subject is not really worth dicussing it, as far as it concerns me. Everybody knows what music is, to some the styles they haven't grown up with might sound ugly, nevertheless it is. To others again, the wind blowing from the cliffs sounds like music. Defining music is for people who want to study it and therefor need a literal basis to distinguish music from other physical effects.

All of this contradicts my first statement, though, that this subject needs no discussion. It obviously does. So my final statement is: music is basically what people feel that is music. If you understand... English not my native tongue and so on...

Oh, and concerning Yes, the band... I like "90125" very much, which was prodouced by Trevor Horn (-> Frankie Goes to Hollywood, ABC...) and therefor has an unbelievably distinguishable sound. Which I like... I have already said that. :D
Other Yes albums though have yet failed to "click" with me...
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: PH on Wed, 2007-10-24, 00:18:56
Hehehe Peter, I was just kidding of course, about Yes.

And I know that music is personal.
But still I find it rather interesting that some people have other ideas of music.
My dad can only enjoy music if it exists within the boundaries set by the three elements of music.
This is a very clinical perspective and it lacks any kind of emotion.

This makes me think...
Can you appreciate music that's not nessesarily emotional, just technical?
I say yes.
I can appreciate music without liking it. As long as it is played with skill.
If I want to LIKE it, it has to have some emotion in it too.
I think this is the case with most of us proggers. Popmusic people won't look that far. (I'm really generalizing, lovely!)


-Paco
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-10-24, 11:10:34
Quote from: Peter on Tue, 2007-10-23, 23:59:26
Sorry for intercepting that discussion with such an absolutely unqualified comment, actually. It was a weak try to express the feeling that the subject is not really worth dicussing it, as far as it concerns me. Everybody knows what music is, to some the styles they haven't grown up with might sound ugly, nevertheless it is. To others again, the wind blowing from the cliffs sounds like music. Defining music is for people who want to study it and therefor need a literal basis to distinguish music from other physical effects.

All of this contradicts my first statement, though, that this subject needs no discussion. It obviously does. So my final statement is: music is basically what people feel that is music.

All very true, Cap; however, some of us have been so crazy bout music that we actually have played instruments, studied music history and science, and tried creating music ourselves, and we have a need to exchange such things with each other.

> If you understand... English not my native tongue and so on...

Your English is ausgezeichnet, and I think I'v understood everything you'v written.


> Oh, and concerning Yes, the band... I like "90125" very much, which was produced by Trevor Horn (-> Frankie Goes to Hollywood, ABC...) and therefore has an unbelievably distinguishable sound. Which I like... I have already said that. :D
Other Yes albums though have yet failed to "click" with me...

If you like 90125, you should like Big Generator - same people, same style. And you should try out The Ladder - their best imo, very melodic and spiritual.

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-10-24, 11:21:56
Quote from: PH on Wed, 2007-10-24, 00:18:56
This makes me think...
Can you appreciate music that's not nessesarily emotional, just technical?
I say yes.
I can appreciate music without liking it. As long as it is played with skill.
If I want to LIKE it, it has to have some emotion in it too.
I think this is the case with most of us proggers. Popmusic people won't look that far. (I'm really generalizing, lovely!)

Here we have to be careful, Paco: What many people consider as technical, I experience as sublime. One of the best examples - that we've already discussed a lot - is the so-called noodling of DT. In fact, even with me, the first many times I heard their instrumental passages, I was amazed at what was going on, but not really emotionally moved. Today, when I hear them, they carry me away to higher regions - apart from some passages that I regard as mainly fun.

It's what one calls "acquired taste".

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: PH on Wed, 2007-10-24, 12:03:07
Sure Nicky.

I was more talking about the ever-talked-about-and-spit-upon grunting, for example.
I don't like grunting in music. In fact it makes a song weaker (in my opinion).
But that doesn't mean that technically it is brilliant! I really can appreciate grunting because it's so difficult to make it sound right.

It's like farting. I hate it when I hear it (some people are really disgusting) or even more when I smell it. But that doesn't mean that some people have a very clever way of farting. Almost art. Technically sublime.

I made myself a fool now eh? :-X

-Paco
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-10-24, 12:10:57
Art or fart? That's the question, huh, Paco. In fact you can ask that with a lot of pop music.

Again, re growl, it's very much an acquired taste. With Opeth initially, I was gripped by the music, but the growl bothered me. Now I'm still not a big fan of growl, but I take it as an exotic spice along with the excellent serving.

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: bluepony on Wed, 2007-10-24, 12:24:36
Quote from: PH on Wed, 2007-10-24, 12:03:07
It's like farting. I hate it when I hear it (some people are really disgusting) or even more when I smell it. But that doesn't mean that some people have a very clever way of farting. Almost art. Technically sublime.

ROFL
I like your comparisons, Paco!  ;D
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: keyboardistmatt on Sat, 2007-12-15, 18:58:37
I always think that music is music if it can be notated.  That doesn't mean it has to be written out in musical notation, it just means that only music can be written out in this way. 

For example, white noise is not music because you can't write it as notation, these words are not music because they are written in a different way.   However an electricity substation produces a hum at about 50hz, which can be notated.  Even silence can be notated, believe it or not!

That doesn't change the fact that everybodie's interpretations of music differ to a large extent.

I could go in to sampling, but that seems unnessessary at this time. :)
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Peter on Sun, 2007-12-16, 13:09:54
Good point, Matt.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-12-16, 15:17:59
We just have to consider that what makes the difference is:  Who performs ?

When Gary Hughes sings "Through The Fire", it's great art; when I sing it, it's "OK guys, party's over, time to go home".

Nicky.
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: maddox on Sun, 2007-12-16, 23:11:27
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-12-16, 15:17:59
We just have to consider that what makes the difference is:  Who performs ?

When Gary Hughes sings "Through The Fire", it's great art; when I sing it, it's "OK guys, party's over, time to go home".

Nicky.

*stealing Pete's line:

Good point, Nicky.  ;D
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: PH on Mon, 2007-12-17, 22:17:07
Har har har
Title: Re: What is music?
Post by: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-12-18, 00:17:54
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-12-17, 22:17:07
Har har har

That's very simple music, Paco  ;D

Nicky.