Christian bands/christian accountable bands

[kmorse]

Paco,

Interpretations are just that: interpretations. Each of us might seen different things in a songwriter's lyrics.

As for RPWL, if you're aware of the influences in their lyrics and firm enough in your own beliefs, there may not be any harm to you at all. Sometimes the biggest danger is giving others the wrong impression of what you think. If you can navigate that issue, then you're okay.

But I understand having concerns. This always brings to mind Paul's admonition about eating meat sacrificed to idols. Acts 15, Romans 14, I Corinthians 8, I Corinthians 10 all deal with the specific topic of meat but some people apply the principle to all kinds of matters.

Keith

[PH]

As for RPWL, if you're aware of the influences in their lyrics and firm enough in your own beliefs, there may not be any harm to you at all. Sometimes the biggest danger is giving others the wrong impression of what you think. If you can navigate that issue, then you're okay.

But I understand having concerns. This always brings to mind Paul's admonition about eating meat sacrificed to idols. Acts 15, Romans 14, I Corinthians 8, I Corinthians 10 all deal with the specific topic of meat but some people apply the principle to all kinds of matters.

Hey Keith,

It's good to see that you take things seriously. I can see it in your posts. They're full of wisdom. (Not every christian knows the teachings of Arius for example...)

Thanks for your words but I have some questions:

As for RPWL, if you're aware of the influences in their lyrics and firm enough in your own beliefs, there may not be any harm to you at all.

Are you sure? That way I can listen to bands like Dementor (see the "Blasphemy and satanic and/or anti-christian bands" topic with a good conscience...

Sometimes the biggest danger is giving others the wrong impression of what you think. If you can navigate that issue, then you're okay.

What exactly do you mean by this?

But I understand having concerns. This always brings to mind Paul's admonition about eating meat sacrificed to idols. Acts 15, Romans 14, I Corinthians 8, I Corinthians 10 all deal with the specific topic of meat but some people apply the principle to all kinds of matters.

Ok, I've read Acts 15
[For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you.]

As I read this I'm told that I should abstain from things sacrificed to idols. RPWL's music is 'dedicated' to Shiva. This makes me think that I should abstain from RPWL's music...

What do you think Keith? Nicky? Appelmoes???


-Paco

[Nicky007]

Paco, first of all, I agree with you that Keith's posts always are very interesting, and that he has a deep understanding of religion. I would gladly see Keith posting more often in the Room.

I think that he has an important point in that the primary thing is for each individual to seek broadly and find his own personal convictions - religious, social, cultural, sexual, and more. As Socrates said: Gnothe autem - know yourself. The more you know about yourself, the better you can understand others - and accept them, and even support them in their otherness.

I am active in the Theosophical Association in Denmark, which gives me a great opportunity to learn about other religions than my personal faith, Christianity. I discover what's common to all the great religions, and therefore at the core of all humans; and on the other hand what makes my religion special, and I therefore have to struggle more with to make my personal conviction.

Another thing I'd like to bring into the discussion is that for me the central part of the Bible is the four Gospels. These I experience as the closest to divine wisdom. Then come the various Epistles, but let's keep in mind that although Paul's wisdom was great beyond our comprehension, what he wrote in his Epistles is still his personal convictions, and not the Absolute Truth. I think it's unwise and can even be manipulative to use his guidelines as a political program, e.g. many believers have used his statements directing women to be silent in gatherings as an argument against women priests, which I find terrible, because women, as we have seen in Lutheran communities, can become as fine priests as men - in some ways different, but they complement each other nicely.

Regarding meat, I think the best is to avoid eating it altogether. Why murder animals unnecessarily, and even worse, make murderers out of other people, when in our civilisation, meateating is basically a bad habit, like smoking, heroine addiction etc., and a misuse of natural resources that is destroying our whole biosphere?

Nicky.

[PH]

Another thing I'd like to bring into the discussion is that for me the central part of the Bible is the four Gospels. These I experience as the closest to divine wisdom. Then come the various Epistles, but let's keep in mind that although Paul's wisdom was great beyond our comprehension, what he wrote in his Epistles is still his personal convictions, and not the Absolute Truth. I think it's unwise and can even be manipulative to use his guidelines as a political program, e.g. many believers have used his statements directing women to be silent in gatherings as an argument against women priests, which I find terrible, because women, as we have seen in Lutheran communities, can become as fine priests as men - in some ways different, but they complement each other nicely.

Hmm, I guess that's where the difference is between what you think and what I think Nicky: I believe that the WHOLE Bible is absolute truth, from Genesis to Revelation. All Godly Inspired. This kind of differences has been fatal in church history, that's why there are so much split churches in The Netherlands.
I agree on the four Gospels being the central part of the Bible though.


-Paco

[PH]

I wanted you to know that I'm starting an analysis on a certain Threshold song.
Threshold is another band which I really like, especially because of the song lyrics.
They are often very deep and inspired.
Richard West is a christian and therefor I think that Threshold is a justified band for christians! (that sounds so dull... )

But of course the discussions about RPWL and my previous analysis on Dream Theater's "Ministry Of Lost Souls" can continue!
I really want to discuss further on that.

Maybe I should start a special thread for my song analyses. I really like it to do them.


-Paco

[Nicky007]

Maybe I should start a special thread for my song analyses. I really like it to do them.

Great idea, Paco. Please go on with it. If an intelligent thought flashes in my mind, I'll contribute 

Nicky.

[bluepony]

If an intelligent thought flashes in my mind, I'll contribute 

Nicky.

Ooooh, you really shouldn't tempt me like that, Nicky... this is screaming for a cheeky reply! 

[maddox]

Ooooh, you really shouldn't tempt me like that, Nicky... this is screaming for a cheeky reply! 

I for one am waiting.   

[bluepony]

If an intelligent thought flashes in my mind, I'll contribute 

Nicky.

"If" - or "when"...? 

[maddox]

"If" - or "when"...? 

[bluepony]

Bet he'll hate me for that... 

[Nicky007]

If you guys don't behave, I'll fulfill my plans of making a real-life remake of Fatal Attraction with you two in the main roles 

Nicky.

[bluepony]

No go - I'm definitely not a 'bunny boiler'! 

[maddox]

If you guys don't behave, I'll fulfill my plans of making a real-life remake of Fatal Attraction with you two in the main roles 

Nicky.

I think i'll pass on that role. Read the script and it's not interesting. Only the main characters are. 

[bluepony]

LOL! That was a good one.

I think we've scared Nicky away... 

[johninblack]

LOL! That was a good one.

I think we've scared Nicky away... 

Lol, I think he's only gone as far as the 'now playing' thread....Mind you, lots of posts to hide up in there

[bluepony]

Nope, he's offline... probably gone drinking some beer. 

[maddox]

LOL! That was a good one.

I think we've scared Nicky away... 

Well i don't think Nick is a resentful guy so i think we shall see him again. 

[bluepony]

Probably... hopefully not only "if..." (see above) 

[kmorse]

Hey Keith,

It's good to see that you take things seriously. I can see it in your posts. They're full of wisdom. (Not every christian knows the teachings of Arius for example...)

Thanks for your words but I have some questions:
Are you sure? That way I can listen to bands like Dementor (see the "Blasphemy and satanic and/or anti-christian bands" topic with a good conscience...
What exactly do you mean by this?

Paco, I think that the lyrics such as the ones you mention would not appeal to me and would negate any enjoyment I'd get out of the music. Philippians 4:8 comes to mind.

Ok, I've read Acts 15
[For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you.]

As I read this I'm told that I should abstain from things sacrificed to idols. RPWL's music is 'dedicated' to Shiva. This makes me think that I should abstain from RPWL's music...

What do you think Keith? Nicky? Appelmoes???
-Paco

Paco, you make a good point about things sacrificed to idols. Some of Paul's other writings about the issue had to do with buying meat or eating meat at a host's house without knowing if it had been sacrificed to idols. (example: I Cor. 10:25). I believe that if we extend this principle to the music we listen to then the knowledge that RPWL has dedicated its music to Shiva might or should give us pause before listening to it. But I'd ask myself, "What are the lyrics saying?" If they promote a belief or action that you find inconsistent with the Bible, then I think it's best to avoid it. If RPWL played all instrumentals, I'm not so sure it would matter.

On the other hand, I find myself losing my enthusiasm for Neal Morse's music not because of any lyrical content but because of what I now know of his beliefs. So, I think that sometimes people are going to come down on different sides with regard to any particular band or lyrical content. And some believers would say that it is difficult or inadvisable to apply a specific teaching about eating meat to the issue of what music we listen to. Maybe Phillipians 4:8 is the better way to go then.

[kmorse]

Another thing I'd like to bring into the discussion is that for me the central part of the Bible is the four Gospels. These I experience as the closest to divine wisdom. Then come the various Epistles, but let's keep in mind that although Paul's wisdom was great beyond our comprehension, what he wrote in his Epistles is still his personal convictions, and not the Absolute Truth. I think it's unwise and can even be manipulative to use his guidelines as a political program, e.g. many believers have used his statements directing women to be silent in gatherings as an argument against women priests, which I find terrible, because women, as we have seen in Lutheran communities, can become as fine priests as men - in some ways different, but they complement each other nicely.

Regarding meat, I think the best is to avoid eating it altogether. Why murder animals unnecessarily, and even worse, make murderers out of other people, when in our civilisation, meateating is basically a bad habit, like smoking, heroine addiction etc., and a misuse of natural resources that is destroying our whole biosphere?

I side with Paco -- and a good many scholars down through the years --  in believing that Paul's Epistles also are inspired. But I will agree with Nicky that we always have to be careful in applying Paul's writings to modern practice. We must understand as fully as possible the historical, cultural and whatever other contexts we can in which he wrote each letter to the early church. Then we can try to apply what he wrote to situations not specifically addressed in the letters.

As for eating meat or not eating meat, I'll leave you with Paul's thought on the matter in Romans 14:6:

"He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."

[kmorse]

Sometimes the biggest danger is giving others the wrong impression of what you think. If you can navigate that issue, then you're okay.
What exactly do you mean by this?

The best example I can think of is if a typical American fellow Christian were to look at my CD collection, they would see very little that he or she was familiar with. That might leave him with the impression that in some way I was not a sincere believer. Beyond that, if they were to see CDs by a band such as Opeth,  they might really be put off. I could spend a bunch of time trying to explain why I have no problems of conscience with Opeth's lyrics but many people would simply react emotionally and not listen. Opeth is probably the most extreme example I can come up with from my music collection. It is certainly not one dominated by black metal or blasphemous music. Some would argue that I should avoid the very appearance of evil, but I think that in this case, it's just as easy to not discuss my musical tastes with people who would not understand the subtleties. That's how I "navigate" the issue, for the most part: I avoid it. And yet I don't think I am concealing anything evil in my character or actions by doing so. It's just not something I consider important enough to discuss with most of my fellow believers.

Getting back to meat, I could perhaps apply I Corinthians 8:13:

"Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."

In this case, it's not a matter of eating meat -- or being seen eating meat (remembering that the issue here was eating meat that had been or possibly had been sacrificed to idols -- but just bringing up the subject of music at all and causing him to "fall," or in this case make an incorrect judgement about my character based on something he doesn't fully understand or appreciate.

I hope this makes sense.;

[Nicky007]

I think i'll pass on that role. Read the script and it's not interesting. Only the main characters are. 

That's exactly why I've casted you for the main male role, Maddox 

But if you'd prefer the main female role, you can have that instead, as far as I'm concerned. I'd just like to warn you that she ends up in pretty bad shape - and we'd first have to remove some tissue on you in that case.

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

I side with Paco -- and a good many scholars down through the years --  in believing that Paul's Epistles also are inspired.

I personally would prefer to leave that question open, Keith. It also depends on what one means by "inspired". I consider myself to be inspired when I get a new good idea, like joining the Room, and I don't know from how high up that comes: from my higher self, the angelic plane, Christ?

In any case, we can all agree that St. Paul had some very extraordinary things to tell us, and that's why I characterise him with the restrained word "wise". I think that most of us also consider that his directions were to some extent contextual, related to his time and place, and we therefore should regard them with a critical mind.

As to the treatment of animals, I see in the evolution of mankind a growth of charity - happily. In Paul's time and place, it was a hard job keeping humans from killing each other. In present-day Western Europe, humans live relatively peacefully with each other; however, our treatment of animals is terrible (similar to the Nazis' treatment of Jews, homosexuals, and others that they considered inferior), and I think the time is ripe to start extending our charity to our fellow beings on this earth (not only humans), and help them too have a full life in accordance with their resp. dynamics. An extra bonus would be that we could economise far better with our natural resources.

Nicky.

[kmorse]

Nicky,

My definition of "inspired" would be "God-breathed." God spoke *through" the writers of the gospels and epistles without obliterating their personalities or simply dictating as I think Muslims believe Allah did when he gave Muhammed the Q'uran.

Then, in the 4th century, the early church got together and sorted out what was acceptable and what wasn't. I believe God had control over that process as well. The result was a Bible that is consistent and whose apparent contradictions can be resolved with a proper understanding of the entire context and intent of their writing.

Your example of Paul's instructions on women speaking in church is a good one. My understanding is that Paul was speaking to a church where the women had a habit of interrupting the preaching service by asking their husbands questions. This was part about keeping the order and perhaps some of Paul's cultural differences with his Greek congregations. I don't think it really spoke to the matter of women leading a church. Now there*are* some other places where Paul talks about the qualifications for elders and deacons. The sticking point is usually the phrase "husband of one wife" and the issue becomes "do we apply that literally or is it a principle? If we apply it literally, then, men without a wife are not qualified. Or is it a principle that has more to do with overall fidelity. Or maybe single men should't be church leaders. Perhaps the temptation toward sexual impropriety would have been too strong. Lots of things to consider.

Nicky, I respect your ideas on how our attitude toward the treatment of animals might be evolving. Perhaps it is like our attitude toward smoking -- at least here in parts of the U.S. It is becoming very unacceptable (which is fine by me). However, I just would never consider eating meat or not eating meat to be a matter of whether I am "saved" in the Christian sense or not.

Lastly, I want to thank everyone for their civil tones in this discussion. Here in the U.S., it seems that all people want to do is quarrel over these things rather than discuss and understand one another.

Cheers,

Keith