Christian bands/christian accountable bands

[PH]

There's a topic about German bands, Dutch bands, Italian bands and now I wanted to start a topic about christian bands!

I felt a need for it.

Here we can discuss christian prog/prog related bands. This is also the place for those who are in need to discuss a band wether they can account for it because of their belief.
(Don't know if I said that right, please correct me!)

- Neal Morse
- Iona
- Salem Hill
- Apple Pie
- King's X
- Ajalon
- Glass Hammer


Also I know 3/5 of Dream Theater is christian, which raises of course the interesting question: Is DT a christian band?
I'd say no.
Well then, is DT a christian justified band?
Then I'd say yes (as with most Prog bands by the way, luckily for me )
But I've seen that as a christian you've to be constantly on the lookout, because some of DT's lyrics are quite dubious, questionable...
What about reïncarnation for example? (Scenes From A Memory) This is just a small thing, because I know, it's only a story, but still...
And I have great difficulty with their latest output: Systamatic Chaos... The lyrics are very dubious in some places...

Anyway, I leave you with this. And of course this topic isn't only for christians! I'd be happy if everybody will participate in this!

Thank you!

[Nicky007]

Neal Morse is Christian, and his lyrics are very Biblical. I particularly like his Sola Scriptura, as it vividly recounts the unique struggle of Martin Luther.

I don't have much knowledge of the other groups in your list, as their music hasn't really gripped me.

Dream Theater grapple with the deep questions of Christianity, but they also deal with many other themes, so I wouldn't call them a Christian group in the strict sense.

Contrary to you, Paco, I don't see reincarnation as being in conflict with Christianity. Through the ages, there have been many Christian groups who have had reincarnation as part of their faith, or at least been open to it, e.g. the ancient Christian gnostics and present-day Anthroposophists. I myself am 50/50 on reincarnation.

I'd like to hear about other DT lyrics that you have problems with.

Nicky.

[maddox]

- Neal Morse
- Iona
- Salem Hill
- Apple Pie
- King's X
- Ajalon
- Glass Hammer

You might want to add Spocks Beard, Cryptic Vision and Cairo too. 

Also I know 3/5 of Dream Theater is christian, which raises of course the interesting question: Is DT a christian band?
I'd say no.
Well then, is DT a christian justified band?
Then I'd say yes (as with most Prog bands by the way, luckily for me )

A dilemma. I never thought of Dream Theater as a Christian band. Their topics doesn't strike me as Christian related but then again i might not be looking in the right direction here.
Indeed there are some lyrics that can be explained as Christian-related but that all depends in how you read it. Remember that one? 

Some or all, i don't know actually, of the members might be Christians but in the end i say 'no' too.
A justified Christian band? Might be.

What about reïncarnation for example? (Scenes From A Memory) This is just a small thing, because I know, it's only a story, but still...

I think that's coincidence because reincarnation can be a thing to write about for any other band, prog or not, as well.
For example, when i read my own lyrics some can be explained as Christian related but some definitely are not. It depends on how you read it i guess.

But if you or any other think it is, then that's your right.

[Appelmoes??]

I like Neal Morse's music very much, but I have HUGE question marks with his latest work Solo Scriptura. At some points he's just plain Catholic bashing, and I can only respect someone, if he in turn respects others.

I know some lesser known bands, but they are not exactly prog. but I'm very interested in King's X, since Ty Tabor will be on the new Ayreon album, and I REALLY like his voice in the sample that was put online.

Aah, yes... The well known discussion of Chrianity and music/lyrics. Can't wait

[bluepony]

... I don't see reincarnation as being in conflict with Christianity. ...

I've read (never double-checked myself, though) that there's a text passage in the bible where Jesus allegedly affirms to his disciples that John the Baptist was indeed the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah... And isn't resurrection itself one of the basic beliefs of Christianity?

[JJ II]

I like Neal Morse's music very much, but I have HUGE question marks with his latest work Solo Scriptura. At some points he's just plain Catholic bashing, and I can only respect someone, if he in turn respects others.

This point has been discussed over and over again, and Neal has responded to the criticism on this point. I think he made very clear that if an album is about a struggle of a certain person (Martin Luther in this case) with the Catholic Church, that you can't be very positive on the mother-church throughout the entire album.

Here we can discuss christian prog/prog related bands.

I always tend to think this is a strange way of think about peoples beliefs. Just as a couple of christian doctor doesn't make the hospital a christian hospital. And the christian baker, doesn't make christian bread.

I think you can say there's something called christian music, but that's only when lyrics are openly talking about God, with the intention to 'spread the Gospel'. Neal Morse is a good example. Maybe Peter Gee's album (which is a fine collection of songs) could count as well, just as some of Kerry Livgren's solo work.
But of course not every song or album on which God is mentioned can be considered christian. It would make Iron Maiden (Revelations!) a christian band. I've been involved about the christian character of The Visitor for years, ever since I wrote an article about it.

Finally, I tend to follow St.Augustine's logic: he says the earth and what is on it is a creation of God (whether you believe in the Big Bang or you are a creationist, I'll leave that in the middle). If that's true God can be found in anything on earth: love, nature, and arts. If God's omnipresent, you'll find him in music as well, not just in 'christian-labeled' music. I find God in the guitar-solo of Firth of Fifth for example. Does it make Steve Hackett a christian guitarist? Other find God in the mountains: does this make the alps a christian scenery? Probably not.


                                                                                                                                                                                             

[Nicky007]

I've read (never double-checked myself, though) that there's a text passage in the bible where Jesus allegedly affirms to his disciples that John the Baptist was indeed the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah.

Yes, that's in the Transfiguration of Jesus, Matthew 17: 1-13, and other places.

Wikipedia: "The Apostles are also described as questioning Jesus about Elijah, and he as responding '...Elijah comes first, and restores all things ... but ... Elijah has come indeed ...' (Mark 9:12-13). It was commonly believed that Elijah would reappear before the coming of the Messiah, as predicted in the Book of Malachi (Malachi 4), and the three Apostles are described as interpreting Jesus' statement as a reference to John the Baptist."

Whether one calls that reincarnation is a matter of taste.


> And isn't resurrection itself one of the basic beliefs of Christianity?

Resurrection and reincarnation are two very different things, Bluey.

Nicky.

[Appelmoes??]

This point has been discussed over and over again, and Neal has responded to the criticism on this point. I think he made very clear that if an album is about a struggle of a certain person (Martin Luther in this case) with the Catholic Church, that you can't be very positive on the mother-church throughout the entire album.

I feel Neil is quite insulting in some parts, and he could have been more sensitive about that.

I think you can say there's something called christian music, but that's only when lyrics are openly talking about God, with the intention to 'spread the Gospel'. Neal Morse is a good example. Maybe Peter Gee's album (which is a fine collection of songs) could count as well, just as some of Kerry Livgren's solo work.
But of course not every song or album on which God is mentioned can be considered christian. It would make Iron Maiden (Revelations!) a christian band. I've been involved about the christian character of The Visitor for years, ever since I wrote an article about it.

I don't care if a band is christian or not, I just check if the lyrics are ok with me. If the lyrics are christian, all the more better.

Finally, I tend to follow St.Augustine's logic: he says the earth and what is on it is a creation of God (whether you believe in the Big Bang or you are a creationist, I'll leave that in the middle). If that's true God can be found in anything on earth: love, nature, and arts. If God's omnipresent, you'll find him in music as well, not just in 'christian-labeled' music. I find God in the guitar-solo of Firth of Fifth for example. Does it make Steve Hackett a christian guitarist? Other find God in the mountains: does this male the alps a christian scenery? Probably not.

Exactly, and it also means you don't have to look for God in the church. In my case, the church is filled with people that don't seem to happy about it It's waay to serious. Aren't we there to praise and stuff? Singing a Psalm with lyrics that are quite joyfull, with out looking happy is just plain weird to me...


                                                                                                                                                                                             
[/quote]

[Appelmoes??]

Yes, that's in the Transfiguration of Jesus, Matthew 17: 1-13.

Wikipedia: "The Apostles are also described as questioning Jesus about Elijah, and he as responding '...Elijah comes first, and restores all things ... but ... Elijah has come indeed ...' (Mark 9:12-13). It was commonly believed that Elijah would reappear before the coming of the Messiah, as predicted in the Book of Malachi (Malachi 4), and the three Apostles are described as interpreting Jesus' statement as a reference to John the Baptist."

Whether one calls that reincarnation is a matter of taste.


> And isn't resurrection itself one of the basic beliefs of Christianity?

Resurrection and reincarnation are two very different things, Bluey.

Nicky.

He could also just compare the two. It doesn't convince me though.

[bluepony]

Resurrection and reincarnation are two very different things, Bluey.

Well... it's both some kind of 'recycling' (in lack of a better word) of the human soul...

[JJ II]

I feel Neil is quite insulting in some parts, and he could have been more sensitive about that.

Okay, is he, or is Martin Luther in the story? I mean: if you write a story, or make a movie about hookers and thiefs, you won't be able to avoid swearing an rough language. That doesn't mean you as a write agree with it, are you?

BTW: do you have any examples of lyrics that you're referring to?

[PH]

I've read (never double-checked myself, though) that there's a text passage in the bible where Jesus allegedly affirms to his disciples that John the Baptist was indeed the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah... And isn't resurrection itself one of the basic beliefs of Christianity?

I've thought about that one for a long while, you know.
But there's one major flaw in this one:
Eliyah didn't die...

Resurrection is something different than reincarnation. Reincarnation means that you die and are born again or if you're very unlucky you might even turn into a plant... :/
Resurrection is one of the basic beliefs of christianity indeed. Jesus died and was resurrected. Also Lazarus and the daughter of Jairus both died and were resurrected again.

And then there's the "born-again" thing, which is of course something different again.


About Luther and the catholic church.
Luther was against the catholic church at that time (mind you, everybody was catholic at that time, there weren't protestants yet of course, if you was born in that time, you'd be catholic!).
The catholic church has changed, so Neal wasn't talking/singing about the catholic church like it is today, but the church how it was in the dark ages. With people who couldn't read the Bible for themselves and people were killed in the name of God. The Pope had his private army back then.

Yeah, I agree with Neal, the church fell into darkness and stayed there for a long while. Luther brought the light back in (and Calvin too).
The protestant church is a result of that. But then the catholic church got through a change too.

You might want to add Spocks Beard, Cryptic Vision and Cairo too. 

Well... I'm not sure.
Cryptic Vision, yes indeed they are.
But Spock's Beard isn't necessarily a Christian band, but I can listen to it without problem though. It's the same as with Dream Theater actually.

Don't know Cairo.

A dilemma. I never thought of Dream Theater as a Christian band. Their topics doesn't strike me as Christian related but then again i might not be looking in the right direction here.
Indeed there are some lyrics that can be explained as Christian-related but that all depends in how you read it. Remember that one? 

"I Walk Beside You", and there are some more.
"The Root Of All Evil", could be explained as a christian song, since it deals with sin and that you can't get free from it by yourself.
I know that this song is about Portnoy's alcohol addiction, but then again the Twelve Steps Program is a christian initiative...

Contrary to you, Paco, I don't see reincarnation as being in conflict with Christianity. Through the ages, there have been many Christian groups who have had reincarnation as part of their faith, or at least been open to it, e.g. the ancient Christian gnostics and present-day Anthroposophists. I myself am 50/50 on reincarnation.

I'm sure that there was something about reincarnation written in the Bible. I'll look it up for you.
Most theology questions and science vs faith have been there always. Greece is one of the countries where philosophy came from. Paul wrote about it in his letters.

I'd like to hear about other DT lyrics that you have problems with.

Phew... Ehhmmm...
Systematic Chaos...
In "In The Presence Of Enemies" they use a text from Psalm 23 which is altered here and there and I'm not sure if I'm happy with it...

I really like "The Ministry Of Lost Souls" though, but the more I read the lyrics the more I get confused... What is it REALLY about?

"Forsaken" and "The Dark Eternal Night" are strange, it's like a horror movie or something of course, I know that. But I don't like horror movies.

[PH]

The only problem with Sola Scriptura is that some of the lyrics are (although I know that it's part of the story) a bit difficult for me to sing along.
I won't sing "In the name of God you must die" while my parents are listening. Or what if Jesus was standing behind me? You know?

[Nicky007]

I really like "The Ministry Of Lost Souls" though, but the more I read the lyrics the more I get confused... What is it REALLY about?

There's been a big discussion about The Ministry on Songmeanings.net with many different interpretations, psychological and religious:

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3530822107858663384

Further, John P discusses it on the DVD in the Special Edition of SC.

Fabulous song!

Nicky.

[PH]

Yes I like the Ministry of Souls very much.

I've played the whole album again today and now I'm spitting through the lyrics again.
I'm trying to analyze it for myself, when I'm done I'll post it here and you lot can add and scrap.

[PH]

The water's edge
Is where she waits
Lost souls still wandering
Meant to die
But she's stuck not crossing over

In Christian belief we have to "die with Christ" to receive eternal life. We need to "crucify" our old self, so to speak. And only put our trust on Him. Many souls are still wandering in their sin. The protoganist wants to receive eternal life, but doesn't want to give up her "old self". She HAS to "die" to get born again in paradise.

The other side
Is where he waits
His spirit reaching out
Meant to save
But she's too scared to take his hand

At the other side, Jesus wants the girl to trust Him. He sends His Spirit to touch people. Some people don't notice it, they are still wandering. Some people DO notice it and are happy to take His hand. This girl however, does notice it, and she wants this paradise, but she's too scared to give herself to Him, to leave her own "safe" world.

Living in a world without you
(Drowning in the past)
Is living in no world at all
So now I call on you...

God's purpose with life is to have a relationship with everyone of us. God doesn't want to live without us, that's not how it's meant to be. He's calling on us "Why have you forsaken Me?" "Where are you?" "Please, come back to Me!".

Remember me? I gave you life
You would not take it
Your suffering was all in vain
It's almost over now
Don't turn your back on paradise

"It was Me who gave you life." Without God we wouldn't exist. And still we all are turning our backs against our own Father. The only thing God is asking is that we believe Him, that we put our trust in Him. That's nothing in comparison for what He's done for us. He's giving us paradise! But still we won't take it. We don't accept Christ as our Saviour. We think we can do it all by ourselves. But we can't! And then after all, our suffering would be in vain. Because you HAVE to take His hand, or else you HAVE to do it by yourself, and as said before, you CAN'T! It can be over any moment. Don't turn your back on paradise!

Feeling scared, she's prepared
To give up everything
She can't stand to feel
Like half of her is fading

Then she's prepared to give up everything, to live with God.

He will choose the only way
To rid her of her pain
Take her soul now
The decision has been made

God is the One who chooses how to rid her of her pain. We don't choose for ourselves. Perhaps it means that He thinks "My dear child, I love you so much, I want to have you with me right now" and then you die and the next moment you meet God. (That's why the good always go first! )

Living in a world without love
(A burden to my soul)
Is living in a worthless world
So I will call on you...

God is love. Without love the world would be worthless.

Remember me? I gave you life
You would not take it
Your suffering was all in vain
It's almost over

Remember me? You were so young
How could I tell you?
Remember me? I am the one
Who saved your life that night

God is the One Who saved our souls. Thanks to Jesus on the cross. It wasn't night at that moment, but it was as dark as night for three hours that day.

I was the one who would not abandon you
Even in death I was the one who would not leave you
I used my freedom to protect you
And all the while direct you
Do you remember me this time?
Even in death I gave you life
I gave you life!

We abandon God all the time, but God doesn't abandon us. He's always walking beside us. "Wherever we are, whatever it takes and no matter how far" (remember that other Dream Theater song? ). Even in the darkest moments He won't leave us. "We try to live without Him but He will always be there, just a single breath away" (Arena song... ). AND He will share our fate, as He did when He walked the Earth. He protects us and directs our lives.

I wanted to
Deserve a place
A place beside you
This time when I reached out my hand
It reached all the way to heaven

She wanted to DESERVE a place. She wanted to earn a place in heaven, but she finds out that you can't EARN a place in heaven. It's all about grace and accepting Jesus. The moment she knew, she reached out for His hand and it reached all the way to heaven.

Remember me? I gave you life
You would not take it
Your suffering was all in vain
It's almost over now
Goodbye
It's almost over now
Goodbye

It's time
I release you from this life
Don't turn your back on paradise

God decides when it's time for her to go.


There are still some things that I don't understand, like the "drowning in the past" thing. Or "She can't stand to feel like half of her is fading". "You were so young, how could I tell you?"

Maybe some of you can fill the gaps, and of course you can give me your vision on it. This is somewhat mine.

[Nicky007]

Hey, that's really great, Paco.

Did you really author that yourself?

It sure made me think.

The Ministry is one of the greatest prog songs ever, because everything is simply over the top: lyrics, musicianship, melody lines, passion, atmosphere - simply everything. And you keep on hearing new things, e.g. I just noticed Mike's fabulous drumming at the closing of the song. I'm not leaving the Room before I've gotten even Cap to admit that this is a great song 

Your thoughts, Paco, are worth dwelling on several times. If I flash on some further interesting thought, I'll get back to you guys.

Meantime, have you guys noticed that although some of us are convinced Calvinists, some Lutherans, some more independent Christian thinkers, probably even some Catholics, we're actually talking very nicely with each other, in fact even enjoying each other's company? Only three centuries ago, Europeans were killing each other because of these differences.

In fact - and here's some special Room emo - I even feel that as (more or less) Christian proggies, we're even evolving some sorta proggie Christianity, aren't we? Something about prog music leading us into very special areas of the soul.

If this makes any sense to you, I'd very much like to hear some of your thoughts bout it.

Nicky.

[PH]

Thanks Nicky, yes those are my thoughts on the song. I did author that myself, because I feel that not everything has been said about the song. John Petrucci himself only told about the drowning of the girl and the man who saved her. He's actually very cryptical about it. I'm sure this is what the song is about, or at least I come very close, but I don't think John Petrucci would admit it and keeps a bit on the superficial side of the song.

And indeed. I like it when I meet other christians. We have to get together, doesn't matter in what ways we differ from opinions, at last we all accept Jesus as our Saviour, that's what matters.

I think.

[Nicky007]

Thanks Nicky, yes those are my thoughts on the song. I did author that myself, because I feel that not everything has been said about the song.

That's amazing, Paco, because it shows a maturity that I'v only experienced with people far older than you. I would'v betted a Chimay that your Dad had written it. But OK, big kudos to you, pal.

> John Petrucci himself only told about the drowning of the girl and the man who saved her. He's actually very cryptical about it. I'm sure this is what the song is about, or at least I come very close, but I don't think John Petrucci would admit it and keeps a bit on the superficial side of the song.

John P is Genius (I'm sure we can agree on that), also as lyricist, and a devout Catholic too, and at this level it makes no diff at all whether a person is Cath, Prot or whatever. Just like with e.g. Shakespeare, John P's lyrics operate on several diff levels; that's one of the things that are great about them. John wants us to think things out for ourselves, so naturally he only gives out a couple of hints in these directions.


> And indeed, I like it when I meet other christians. We have to get together, doesn't matter in what ways we differ from opinions, at last we all accept Jesus as our Saviour, that's what matters.

For sure.

Have you ever thought about moving professionally in a theological direction, Paco? You're very well versed in all the traditional theological stuff, but beyond that, you could offer the world a progressive dimension derived from your musical and lyrical explorations (and your crazy roomie pals).

Nicky.

[kmorse]

In my opinion, the best single verse on whether Christianity teaches reincarnation would be this:

Hebrews 9:27: Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment ...

The references to Elijah, et al, cited here as being about reincarnation probably relate to a prophecy in Malachi 4:

5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."

Some think that referred to John the Baptist and in Jesus day, some thought Jesus himself was the fulfillment (Matthew 16:12-14).

John the Baptist denied being "Elijah" (John 1:21) but Jesus had a different take, it would appear (Matthew 11:14). But I don't think that Jesus was referring to a reincarnation, just a symbolic return. I don't believe that the Jews of Jesus' time taught or believed in reincarnation. One of the big debates between the Pharisees and Sadducees was over whether there was a resurrection of the body at all or whether this life was it. Any ideas about reincarnation might have come from the Greeks or elsewhere and might have filtered into some Jewish thinking, but again, I don't think it was prevalent or widely accepted or even tolerated.

[kmorse]

As for Neal Morse, I have real problems with what he believes about the nature of Jesus Christ. If you go through the discussion boards on his web site, you'll understand what I'm talking about. I have raised this issue on a Christian Progressive Rock board and pretty much shouted down, however. Apparently some people don't see this as being very important.

[PH]

As for Neal Morse, I have real problems with what he believes about the nature of Jesus Christ. If you go through the discussion boards on his web site, you'll understand what I'm talking about. I have raised this issue on a Christian Progressive Rock board and pretty much shouted down, however. Apparently some people don't see this as being very important.

You mean that he doesn't believe that Jesus is God? He has a very... strange idea about the Trinity indeed.
Yes, I've read that, and I have also real problems with it.
But fortunately it's not recognisable in his songs.

[kmorse]

PH,

Correct. His Christology is much closer to that of Arius, the third century teacher who held that Christ was a created being rather than God. So far, it hasn't showed up in his lyrics. Not sure if he'll feel moved to start expressing that idea or not.

Keith

[PH]

His Christology is much closer to that of Arius, the third century teacher who held that Christ was a created being rather than God. So far, it hasn't showed up in his lyrics. Not sure if he'll feel moved to start expressing that idea or not.

Well, I think he won't, because he had a lot of critic on his comments on it. But on the other hand maybe he sees it as "his duty" to show us "how it is"...
Difficult, difficult....


-Paco

[PH]

Can anyone add something to the analysis I did on Ministry Of Lost Souls?
Am I totally wrong on it. Are you not sure about a certain part of the song('s analysis)?
I'm very curious about opinions and different perspectives.

Also another thing.
As a Christian I'm kinda struggling with bands like RPWL which have obviously Hindu influences. A subject to talk about?


-Paco