Christian bands/christian accountable bands

[PH]

Did you read the comments on that page? And the accusations of plagiarism? It's all very interesting. I've grown weary of DT myself, so this whole matter is neither here nor there with me.

Then I'd really like to see what our "Dream Theater fanatic" (Nicky) has to say.

It's very difficult, since some of their lyrics are very constructive and encouraging. But with these kind of lyrics I tend to believe that they are very contradicting themselves. And Keith, like you said: They never really expressed that they are christians. At least not in a way that Neal Morse does.
Talking about extremes...


-Paco

[maddox]

Back to my original question (no one answered it yet).

I think I've made clear why I am (as a christian) very disappointed in the lyrics on Systematic Chaos (except for Ministry Of Lost Souls).
Especially when keeping in mind that James LaBrie, John Petrucci and John Myung are christians (and Mike and Jordan being Jewish).

Today I found the inspiration for the song In The Presence Of Enemies and it doesn't change my opinion.
More the opposite actually...

Can anyone shed any light on this matter? What is Dream Theater doing here?


Thanks in advance,
Paco

Well i read it through, which was a rough ride to say the least, but the way i see it the song is based upon a comic. There are a lot of similarities between ITPOE and Priest (the comic) and to me the tie does make sense.
I can understand the harshness of the story bothers you. It is indeed pretty rough but nevertheless i see it as a story. Fiction just to entertain people.

Either you like it or not, that's a different story. 

[Nicky007]

Then I'd really like to see what our "Dream Theater fanatic" (Nicky) has to say.

It's true that I'm a big fan of DT, and I find their lyrics very profound.

However, I'm rather new to DT, and by no means one of the biggest DT-experts in the Room.

I do find much more depth in The Ministry than can be expressed by "comic" and "fiction" though - was this a joke on your side, Mad?

At the moment I'm too Tennish to go in depth with any other group, but knowing myself, I can't leave a question like Paco's here unturned, so I'll return.

Nicky.

[maddox]

I do find much more depth in The Ministry than can be expressed by "comic" and "fiction" though - was this a joke on your side, Mad?

No, no joke. I meant it as i said.

The problem with these kind of lyrics, as you will, is that sometimes your mind goes wandering off.
Sometimes its better to stick with the lyrics as they are: lyrics. Not every lyric has to be autobiographic.

Like i said, i admit that the lyrics of ITPOE are somewhat un-Dreamtheaterish and i can imagine that it might be too hard to swallow for some.

Nothing but respect and understanding for that. 

[PH]

"My cup overflows with the blood of the slaughtered lamb"?!?!?!?!

I think this is very distasteful. And very offensive towards christians. That being said, I clearly don't like comics like that. And I can imagine that most christians wouldn't like it.
Satanic Metal bands (like the ones mentioned in the satanic-metal thread) that take these comic as an inspiration, I can follow that.
But how can John Petrucci (said to be a christian) base the lyrics on something like that? Why would he want to read it in the first place?
This really confuses me.

[Nicky007]

Paco, how about becoming a member of VoicesUK? There you can probably find extensive discussions on DT-lyrics. And you can meet Mad and have a cool beer with him there - and even share some ch* -  which aint too bad, huh?

Nicky.

[PH]

C'mon Nicky, you sure got an opinion about this.
Don't leave us in the dark.


-Paco

[Nicky007]

C'mon Nicky, you sure got an opinion about this.

No, sorry, Paco. (Thanks for the compliment.) 

When my bank is willing to give a credit card again, I'll immediately seek membership of VoicesUK. Before informing myself there, I won't consider myself competent to comment on these things. I do however consider the DT guys to be very serious musicians and philosophers (JP and MP iac), and quite honestly, I don't understand Keith's very serious qualms 

Maybe the difference is that I'm quite willing to take very poetic renditions of Biblical themes?

I find The Ministry a very beautiful poetic depiction of both the relationship between humans, and Christ's reaching a hand to us, as you very nicely described it earlier, Paco.

Nicky.

[PH]

No, sorry, Paco. (Thanks for the compliment.) 

Have you read my earlier post?
Have you read the lyrics to In The Presence Of Enemies (part 1 and part 2)?
Have you read the inspiration for In The Presence Of Enemies?

If "yes" is an answer to at least two of these questions, then I guess you DO have at least a feeling about it.
Especially since you commented earlier that you like the lyrics of Dream Theater and you also like DT's latest album.

When my bank is willing to give a credit card again, I'll immediately seek membership of VoicesUK. Before informing myself there, I won't consider myself competent to comment on these things.

Why not? I consider myself competent enough to comment on this (I can read the lyrics, I can read the Bible, I can form an opinion based on those two). So I guess if I can, than you certainly can.
Nicky, I believe you are competent enough to give your humble opinion. I have faith in you. I think we all can learn something from each other. So don't be afraid. I make some mistakes myself.

I do however consider the DT guys to be very serious musicians and philosophers (JP and MP iac)

Me too, but we have to think for ourselves. And I think it's good to point out the differences between what I believe and what Dream Theater (or any other artist) believes. This makes you conscious/aware of your own believes ("What exactly do I believe?") and it can also confirm or even improve your own believe ("Yes, I do believe this" or maybe "No I don't believe this"). And sometimes you even have to adapt your own believes ("Hey, I never thought of that!"). This concerns all of us. Christians have another level: to test these adaptations with the Bible.

(Don't know how to put it in English properly... But I tried...)

and quite honestly, I don't understand Keith's very serious qualms 

I do understand it. But of course (and Keith also said that) it's not us who can judge their hearts, fortunately. But as listeners to the music, we HAVE to be awake. So I'd rather be too serious than too naïve. <-- I'm not saying that you are, Nicky! Quite the contrary actually. And that's what I like: all of us like to think about the music and the purpose of the artists. Which is a good thing.

I find The Ministry a very beautiful poetic depiction of both the relationship between humans, and Christ's reaching a hand to us, as you very nicely described it earlier, Paco.

Yes, me too. That's why I really LOVE that song, and that's also why I almost can't believe that John Petrucci wrote both songs... For me it is very contradictive. But I don't wave Dream Theater goodbye, maybe I'm missing something and perhaps I have some "adaptations" to make. That's why I put it in this topic, to see what others have to say about it.

[Nicky007]

Just listened to three of my fave DT-songs:  Lifting Shadows, Take Away My Pain, and The Ministry.

DT, i.a. in these songs, have as major themes: soul mates, loneliness, standing at water's edge, the other world.


In Lifting Shadows:

He seems alone and silent
thoughts remain without an answer
Afraid and uninvited
he slowly drifts away

She can turn a drop of water
Into an ocean
As the rain is pouring down
tears of sorrow wash his mind

He pours his soul into the water
reflecting the mystery
She carries him away
and the winds die slowly

Lifting shadows
off a Dream once broken


In Take Away My Pain:

I was standing by the edge of the water
I noticed my reflection in the waves
Then I saw you looking back at me
And I knew that for a moment
You were calling out my name
You took away my hero
Will you take away my pain

Take away my pain
Let the cold inside
It's time to let it rain
There's nothing left to hide


In The Ministry:

The water's edge
Is where she waits
Lost soul still wandering
Meant to die
But she's stuck not crossing over

The other side
Is where he waits
His spirit reaching out
Meant to save
But she's too scared
To take his hand


Paco, I think the basic story Petrucci is telling us in The Ministry is that a women was on the verge of dying, but she was saved by a man, who himself died in the process. He tried to help her from the other side, but she couldn't any longer pick up her life, she atrophied instead. To what extent it's because she missed him, and to what extent she felt that she unrighteously got her life back at the expense of his, I find difficult to gauge.

Now it's become clear to both that it doesn't make any sense for her to stay on this side, but at the same time, she's afraid to let go. So that's the terrible drama taking place in her soul.

There are some further themes that I cannot yet grasp.

One can of course add further layers of meaning to this basic story. These are great lyrics.

Nicky.

[PH]

Yeah, nice.

Have you already delved deeper into the meaning (and the story behind) In The Presence Of Enemies, Nicky?


-Paco

[Nicky007]

Paco, I'm letting DT rest for a while    During the summer, I listened a lot to them, particularly SC. Real great music, for sure 

Right now, I'd like to get deeper into Sieges Even, who are also one of my fave groups. These guys rock like fh 

I have four of their albums, incl. Paramount and Navigating, and there's enough here for several days of listening. I'm trying to understand their lyrics too (like any true proggie should always do). Quite different from DT's and Arena's lyrics.

Also, I want to get a proper run of Genesis again, i.a. due to your inspiration.

In between I listen to some songs by H-Marillion. They dont grip me like the abovementioned groups, but since I have some "kinda" friends who are M-freaks    I wanna share som'o'that too.

And when I need to get over my Autumn low, I put on Ten. They really raise my spirits 

Tell me about your listening program 

Apart from you and me, our fellow roomies are rather quiet currently, maybe because it's November, and maybe because of heavy birthday drinkin 

You think the impossible has happened after all: That Bluey's fallen in love? 

Bupie will swear at me with all these 

Fortunately he's busy playin Michelangelo 

Nicky.

[Bupie]

Bupie will swear at me with all these 

Fortunately he's busy playin Michelangelo 

Nicky.

Hey, I rarely visit this topic. I take a look and what do I see : Nicky finally recognizes me as an artist 

By the way, as promised, I played Ten EC's Rockers CD twice while painting. Better than the first listen and I don't confuse those with ballads anymore  . I would call it a mix between Asia, Shadow Gallery and Gary Moore. Very different from Def Leppard, I admit, but so far not better in my book. I didn't listen to the second CD because I needed something more familiar to go on working. So I played Contagion by you-know-who. God, what an album !!! 

And, ho, Nicky I really love the three DT songs you mentioned above.

That was my off-topic two cents 

[Nicky007]

Nicky finally recognizes me as an artist 

Bupie. Keeps you from mistreatin the geese 

> I would call it a mix between Asia, Shadow Gallery and Gary Moore.

You must'v meant Arena instead of Asia, Bupie 

> So I played Contagion by you-know-who. God, what an album !!! 

Right on!

Nicky.

[bluepony]

Apart from you and me, our fellow roomies are rather quiet currently, maybe because it's November, and maybe because of heavy birthday drinkin 
Nicky.

(Heavy) drinking - yes; birthday - no. 

[Nicky007]

... Rockers ... and I don't confuse those with ballads anymore

This would be one of the first lessons in the French Flirting School 

Nicky.

[maddox]

(Heavy) drinking - yes

I'm shocked! 

[bluepony]

I'm shocked! 

Bet you're not...! 

[maddox]

Bet you're not...! 

No, really i am! 

 

[PH]

...This is going nowhere...

[Nicky007]

Paco, you could give us some concrete examples to discuss.

I'll admit we've strayed a lot in this thread, but that's prob because the subject matter got out'o'hand 

I mean, the question of whether the different bands actually adhere to the traditions of our Western culture is an interesting one 

Nicky.

[PH]

I mean, the question of whether the different bands actually adhere to the traditions of our Western culture is an interesting one 

Excuse me?
I fail to see this.
You're basicily saying: "Western culture = christian culture".

I have VERY big doubts about that.

[Appelmoes??]

It used to be so, but nowadays it's more a big mix where most of the morals (but not all by a long shot) are based upon christian believes.
I would rather say that Western Culture is largely influenced by Christianity.

[Nicky007]

You're basically saying: "Western culture = Christian culture".

OK, I'll be more specific, Paco: Christianity is what keeps our civilisation sane and together, and the freedom, individuality, and creativity that's far more intrinsic to Christianity than any other religion is what makes us move faster ahead in this direction than any other civilisation on earth.

Why do you think that prog is limited to the Western civilisation? All other places in the world, people are basically playing the same music and telling the same stories as they did generations ago.

What causes degradation and violence in our societies is the lack of Christian values.

So it's a constant struggle for what we regard as the good. Isnt that what life is basically about? 

Nicky.

[PH]

I would rather say that Western Culture is largely influenced by Christianity.

I'd go even further and say that western culture is based upon the fundament that is christianity.

But christianity is also present in Asia for example, so I won't say that Western culture is christian culture.

And today it's almost the other way round. Todays Western culture has got nothing to do with christianity anymore, more with Atheistic Humanism, while christianity takes a lot of influences from todays Western culture... Which gives major problems and a lot of schisms within christianity.
But strictly, christianity is an Eastern religion. Just like Judaism and Islam.


-Paco