There's a topic about German bands, Dutch bands, Italian bands and now I wanted to start a topic about christian bands!
I felt a need for it. ;D
Here we can discuss christian prog/prog related bands. This is also the place for those who are in need to discuss a band wether they can account for it because of their belief.
(Don't know if I said that right, please correct me!)
- Neal Morse
- Iona
- Salem Hill
- Apple Pie
- King's X
- Ajalon
- Glass Hammer
Also I know 3/5 of Dream Theater is christian, which raises of course the interesting question: Is DT a christian band?
I'd say no.
Well then, is DT a christian justified band?
Then I'd say yes (as with most Prog bands by the way, luckily for me ;D )
But I've seen that as a christian you've to be constantly on the lookout, because some of DT's lyrics are quite dubious, questionable...
What about reïncarnation for example? (Scenes From A Memory) This is just a small thing, because I know, it's only a story, but still...
And I have great difficulty with their latest output: Systamatic Chaos... The lyrics are very dubious in some places...
Anyway, I leave you with this. And of course this topic isn't only for christians! I'd be happy if everybody will participate in this!
Thank you!
Neal Morse is Christian, and his lyrics are very Biblical. I particularly like his Sola Scriptura, as it vividly recounts the unique struggle of Martin Luther.
I don't have much knowledge of the other groups in your list, as their music hasn't really gripped me.
Dream Theater grapple with the deep questions of Christianity, but they also deal with many other themes, so I wouldn't call them a Christian group in the strict sense.
Contrary to you, Paco, I don't see reincarnation as being in conflict with Christianity. Through the ages, there have been many Christian groups who have had reincarnation as part of their faith, or at least been open to it, e.g. the ancient Christian gnostics and present-day Anthroposophists. I myself am 50/50 on reincarnation.
I'd like to hear about other DT lyrics that you have problems with.
Nicky.
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-09-03, 21:32:46
- Neal Morse
- Iona
- Salem Hill
- Apple Pie
- King's X
- Ajalon
- Glass Hammer
You might want to add Spocks Beard, Cryptic Vision and Cairo too. ;)
Quote from: PHAlso I know 3/5 of Dream Theater is christian, which raises of course the interesting question: Is DT a christian band?
I'd say no.
Well then, is DT a christian justified band?
Then I'd say yes (as with most Prog bands by the way, luckily for me ;D )
A dilemma. I never thought of Dream Theater as a Christian band. Their topics doesn't strike me as Christian related but then again i might not be looking in the right direction here.
Indeed there are some lyrics that can be explained as Christian-related but that all depends in how you read it. Remember that one? ;)
Some or all, i don't know actually, of the members might be Christians but in the end i say 'no' too.
A justified Christian band? Might be.
Quote
What about reïncarnation for example? (Scenes From A Memory) This is just a small thing, because I know, it's only a story, but still...
I think that's coincidence because reincarnation can be a thing to write about for any other band, prog or not, as well.
For example, when i read my own lyrics some can be explained as Christian related but some definitely are not. It depends on how you read it i guess.
But if you or any other think it is, then that's your right.
I like Neal Morse's music very much, but I have HUGE question marks with his latest work Solo Scriptura. At some points he's just plain Catholic bashing, and I can only respect someone, if he in turn respects others.
I know some lesser known bands, but they are not exactly prog. but I'm very interested in King's X, since Ty Tabor will be on the new Ayreon album, and I REALLY like his voice in the sample that was put online.
Aah, yes... The well known discussion of Chrianity and music/lyrics. Can't wait ;D
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-04, 00:08:50
... I don't see reincarnation as being in conflict with Christianity. ...
I've read (never double-checked myself, though) that there's a text passage in the bible where Jesus allegedly affirms to his disciples that John the Baptist was indeed the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah... And isn't resurrection itself one of the basic beliefs of Christianity?
QuoteI like Neal Morse's music very much, but I have HUGE question marks with his latest work Solo Scriptura. At some points he's just plain Catholic bashing, and I can only respect someone, if he in turn respects others.
This point has been discussed over and over again, and Neal has responded to the criticism on this point. I think he made very clear that if an album is about a struggle of a certain person (Martin Luther in this case) with the Catholic Church, that you can't be very positive on the mother-church throughout the entire album.
QuoteHere we can discuss christian prog/prog related bands.
I always tend to think this is a strange way of think about peoples beliefs. Just as a couple of christian doctor doesn't make the hospital a christian hospital. And the christian baker, doesn't make christian bread.
I think you can say there's something called christian music, but that's only when lyrics are openly talking about God, with the intention to 'spread the Gospel'. Neal Morse is a good example. Maybe Peter Gee's album (which is a fine collection of songs) could count as well, just as some of Kerry Livgren's solo work.
But of course not every song or album on which God is mentioned can be considered christian. It would make Iron Maiden (Revelations!) a christian band. I've been involved about the christian character of The Visitor for years, ever since I wrote an article about it.
Finally, I tend to follow St.Augustine's logic: he says the earth and what is on it is a creation of God (whether you believe in the Big Bang or you are a creationist, I'll leave that in the middle). If that's true God can be found in anything on earth: love, nature, and arts. If God's omnipresent, you'll find him in music as well, not just in 'christian-labeled' music. I find God in the guitar-solo of Firth of Fifth for example. Does it make Steve Hackett a christian guitarist? Other find God in the mountains: does this make the alps a christian scenery? Probably not.
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-04, 08:47:21
I've read (never double-checked myself, though) that there's a text passage in the bible where Jesus allegedly affirms to his disciples that John the Baptist was indeed the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah.
Yes, that's in the Transfiguration of Jesus, Matthew 17: 1-13, and other places.
Wikipedia: "The Apostles are also described as questioning Jesus about Elijah, and he as responding '...Elijah comes first, and restores all things ... but ... Elijah has come indeed ...' (Mark 9:12-13). It was commonly believed that Elijah would reappear before the coming of the Messiah, as predicted in the Book of Malachi (Malachi 4), and the three Apostles are described as interpreting Jesus' statement as a reference to John the Baptist."
Whether one calls that reincarnation is a matter of taste.
> And isn't resurrection itself one of the basic beliefs of Christianity?
Resurrection and reincarnation are two very different things, Bluey.
Nicky.
Quote from: JJ II on Tue, 2007-09-04, 09:44:37
This point has been discussed over and over again, and Neal has responded to the criticism on this point. I think he made very clear that if an album is about a struggle of a certain person (Martin Luther in this case) with the Catholic Church, that you can't be very positive on the mother-church throughout the entire album.
I feel Neil is quite insulting in some parts, and he could have been more sensitive about that.
QuoteI think you can say there's something called christian music, but that's only when lyrics are openly talking about God, with the intention to 'spread the Gospel'. Neal Morse is a good example. Maybe Peter Gee's album (which is a fine collection of songs) could count as well, just as some of Kerry Livgren's solo work.
But of course not every song or album on which God is mentioned can be considered christian. It would make Iron Maiden (Revelations!) a christian band. I've been involved about the christian character of The Visitor for years, ever since I wrote an article about it.
I don't care if a band is christian or not, I just check if the lyrics are ok with me. If the lyrics
are christian, all the more better.
QuoteFinally, I tend to follow St.Augustine's logic: he says the earth and what is on it is a creation of God (whether you believe in the Big Bang or you are a creationist, I'll leave that in the middle). If that's true God can be found in anything on earth: love, nature, and arts. If God's omnipresent, you'll find him in music as well, not just in 'christian-labeled' music. I find God in the guitar-solo of Firth of Fifth for example. Does it make Steve Hackett a christian guitarist? Other find God in the mountains: does this male the alps a christian scenery? Probably not.
Exactly, and it also means you don't have to look for God in the church. In my case, the church is filled with people that don't seem to happy about it ??? It's waay to serious. Aren't we there to praise and stuff? Singing a Psalm with lyrics that are quite joyfull, with out looking happy is just plain weird to me...
[/quote]
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-04, 10:03:15
Yes, that's in the Transfiguration of Jesus, Matthew 17: 1-13.
Wikipedia: "The Apostles are also described as questioning Jesus about Elijah, and he as responding '...Elijah comes first, and restores all things ... but ... Elijah has come indeed ...' (Mark 9:12-13). It was commonly believed that Elijah would reappear before the coming of the Messiah, as predicted in the Book of Malachi (Malachi 4), and the three Apostles are described as interpreting Jesus' statement as a reference to John the Baptist."
Whether one calls that reincarnation is a matter of taste.
> And isn't resurrection itself one of the basic beliefs of Christianity?
Resurrection and reincarnation are two very different things, Bluey.
Nicky.
He could also just compare the two. It doesn't convince me though.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-04, 10:03:15
Resurrection and reincarnation are two very different things, Bluey.
Well... it's both some kind of 'recycling' (in lack of a better word) of the human soul...
QuoteI feel Neil is quite insulting in some parts, and he could have been more sensitive about that.
Okay, is he, or is Martin Luther in the story? I mean: if you write a story, or make a movie about hookers and thiefs, you won't be able to avoid swearing an rough language. That doesn't mean you as a write agree with it, are you?
BTW: do you have any examples of lyrics that you're referring to?
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-04, 08:47:21I've read (never double-checked myself, though) that there's a text passage in the bible where Jesus allegedly affirms to his disciples that John the Baptist was indeed the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah... And isn't resurrection itself one of the basic beliefs of Christianity?
I've thought about that one for a long while, you know.
But there's one major flaw in this one:
Eliyah didn't die... ;)
Resurrection is something different than reincarnation. Reincarnation means that you die and are born again or if you're very unlucky you might even turn into a plant... :/
Resurrection is one of the basic beliefs of christianity indeed. Jesus died and was resurrected. Also Lazarus and the daughter of Jairus both died and were resurrected again.
And then there's the "born-again" thing, which is of course something different again. :D
About Luther and the catholic church.
Luther was against the catholic church at that time (mind you, everybody was catholic at that time, there weren't protestants yet of course, if you was born in that time, you'd be catholic!).
The catholic church has changed, so Neal wasn't talking/singing about the catholic church like it is today, but the church how it was in the dark ages. With people who couldn't read the Bible for themselves and people were killed in the name of God. The Pope had his private army back then.
Yeah, I agree with Neal, the church fell into darkness and stayed there for a long while. Luther brought the light back in (and Calvin too).
The protestant church is a result of that. But then the catholic church got through a change too.
Quote from: maddox on Tue, 2007-09-04, 00:34:14You might want to add Spocks Beard, Cryptic Vision and Cairo too. ;)
Well... I'm not sure.
Cryptic Vision, yes indeed they are.
But Spock's Beard isn't necessarily a Christian band, but I can listen to it without problem though. It's the same as with Dream Theater actually.
Don't know Cairo.
Quote from: maddox on Tue, 2007-09-04, 00:34:14A dilemma. I never thought of Dream Theater as a Christian band. Their topics doesn't strike me as Christian related but then again i might not be looking in the right direction here.
Indeed there are some lyrics that can be explained as Christian-related but that all depends in how you read it. Remember that one? ;)
"I Walk Beside You", and there are some more.
"The Root Of All Evil", could be explained as a christian song, since it deals with sin and that you can't get free from it by yourself.
I know that this song is about Portnoy's alcohol addiction, but then again the Twelve Steps Program is a christian initiative...
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-04, 00:08:50Contrary to you, Paco, I don't see reincarnation as being in conflict with Christianity. Through the ages, there have been many Christian groups who have had reincarnation as part of their faith, or at least been open to it, e.g. the ancient Christian gnostics and present-day Anthroposophists. I myself am 50/50 on reincarnation.
I'm sure that there was something about reincarnation written in the Bible. I'll look it up for you.
Most theology questions and science vs faith have been there always. Greece is one of the countries where philosophy came from. Paul wrote about it in his letters.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-04, 00:08:50I'd like to hear about other DT lyrics that you have problems with.
Phew... Ehhmmm...
Systematic Chaos...
In "In The Presence Of Enemies" they use a text from Psalm 23 which is altered here and there and I'm not sure if I'm happy with it...
I really like "The Ministry Of Lost Souls" though, but the more I read the lyrics the more I get confused... What is it REALLY about?
"Forsaken" and "The Dark Eternal Night" are strange, it's like a horror movie or something of course, I know that. But I don't like horror movies. ;D
The only problem with Sola Scriptura is that some of the lyrics are (although I know that it's part of the story) a bit difficult for me to sing along.
I won't sing "In the name of God you must die" while my parents are listening. Or what if Jesus was standing behind me? You know? ;)
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-09-04, 16:26:51
I really like "The Ministry Of Lost Souls" though, but the more I read the lyrics the more I get confused... What is it REALLY about?
There's been a big discussion about The Ministry on Songmeanings.net with many different interpretations, psychological and religious:
http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=3530822107858663384
Further, John P discusses it on the DVD in the Special Edition of SC.
Fabulous song!
Nicky.
Yes I like the Ministry of Souls very much.
I've played the whole album again today and now I'm spitting through the lyrics again.
I'm trying to analyze it for myself, when I'm done I'll post it here and you lot can add and scrap.
The water's edge
Is where she waits
Lost souls still wandering
Meant to die
But she's stuck not crossing over
In Christian belief we have to "die with Christ" to receive eternal life. We need to "crucify" our old self, so to speak. And only put our trust on Him. Many souls are still wandering in their sin. The protoganist wants to receive eternal life, but doesn't want to give up her "old self". She HAS to "die" to get born again in paradise.
The other side
Is where he waits
His spirit reaching out
Meant to save
But she's too scared to take his hand
At the other side, Jesus wants the girl to trust Him. He sends His Spirit to touch people. Some people don't notice it, they are still wandering. Some people DO notice it and are happy to take His hand. This girl however, does notice it, and she wants this paradise, but she's too scared to give herself to Him, to leave her own "safe" world.
Living in a world without you
(Drowning in the past)
Is living in no world at all
So now I call on you...
God's purpose with life is to have a relationship with everyone of us. God doesn't want to live without us, that's not how it's meant to be. He's calling on us "Why have you forsaken Me?" "Where are you?" "Please, come back to Me!".
Remember me? I gave you life
You would not take it
Your suffering was all in vain
It's almost over now
Don't turn your back on paradise
"It was Me who gave you life." Without God we wouldn't exist. And still we all are turning our backs against our own Father. The only thing God is asking is that we believe Him, that we put our trust in Him. That's nothing in comparison for what He's done for us. He's giving us paradise! But still we won't take it. We don't accept Christ as our Saviour. We think we can do it all by ourselves. But we can't! And then after all, our suffering would be in vain. Because you HAVE to take His hand, or else you HAVE to do it by yourself, and as said before, you CAN'T! It can be over any moment. Don't turn your back on paradise!
Feeling scared, she's prepared
To give up everything
She can't stand to feel
Like half of her is fading
Then she's prepared to give up everything, to live with God.
He will choose the only way
To rid her of her pain
Take her soul now
The decision has been made
God is the One who chooses how to rid her of her pain. We don't choose for ourselves. Perhaps it means that He thinks "My dear child, I love you so much, I want to have you with me right now" and then you die and the next moment you meet God. (That's why the good always go first! ;))
Living in a world without love
(A burden to my soul)
Is living in a worthless world
So I will call on you...
God is love. Without love the world would be worthless.
Remember me? I gave you life
You would not take it
Your suffering was all in vain
It's almost over
Remember me? You were so young
How could I tell you?
Remember me? I am the one
Who saved your life that night
God is the One Who saved our souls. Thanks to Jesus on the cross. It wasn't night at that moment, but it was as dark as night for three hours that day.
I was the one who would not abandon you
Even in death I was the one who would not leave you
I used my freedom to protect you
And all the while direct you
Do you remember me this time?
Even in death I gave you life
I gave you life!
We abandon God all the time, but God doesn't abandon us. He's always walking beside us. "Wherever we are, whatever it takes and no matter how far" (remember that other Dream Theater song? ;) ). Even in the darkest moments He won't leave us. "We try to live without Him but He will always be there, just a single breath away" (Arena song... ;) ). AND He will share our fate, as He did when He walked the Earth. He protects us and directs our lives.
I wanted to
Deserve a place
A place beside you
This time when I reached out my hand
It reached all the way to heaven
She wanted to DESERVE a place. She wanted to earn a place in heaven, but she finds out that you can't EARN a place in heaven. It's all about grace and accepting Jesus. The moment she knew, she reached out for His hand and it reached all the way to heaven.
Remember me? I gave you life
You would not take it
Your suffering was all in vain
It's almost over now
Goodbye
It's almost over now
Goodbye
It's time
I release you from this life
Don't turn your back on paradise
God decides when it's time for her to go.
There are still some things that I don't understand, like the "drowning in the past" thing. Or "She can't stand to feel like half of her is fading". "You were so young, how could I tell you?"
Maybe some of you can fill the gaps, and of course you can give me your vision on it. This is somewhat mine.
Hey, that's really great, Paco.
Did you really author that yourself?
It sure made me think.
The Ministry is one of the greatest prog songs ever, because everything is simply over the top: lyrics, musicianship, melody lines, passion, atmosphere - simply everything. And you keep on hearing new things, e.g. I just noticed Mike's fabulous drumming at the closing of the song. I'm not leaving the Room before I've gotten even Cap to admit that this is a great song ;D
Your thoughts, Paco, are worth dwelling on several times. If I flash on some further interesting thought, I'll get back to you guys.
Meantime, have you guys noticed that although some of us are convinced Calvinists, some Lutherans, some more independent Christian thinkers, probably even some Catholics, we're actually talking very nicely with each other, in fact even enjoying each other's company? Only three centuries ago, Europeans were killing each other because of these differences.
In fact - and here's some special Room emo - I even feel that as (more or less) Christian proggies, we're even evolving some sorta proggie Christianity, aren't we? Something about prog music leading us into very special areas of the soul.
If this makes any sense to you, I'd very much like to hear some of your thoughts bout it.
Nicky.
Thanks Nicky, yes those are my thoughts on the song. I did author that myself, because I feel that not everything has been said about the song. John Petrucci himself only told about the drowning of the girl and the man who saved her. He's actually very cryptical about it. I'm sure this is what the song is about, or at least I come very close, but I don't think John Petrucci would admit it and keeps a bit on the superficial side of the song.
And indeed. I like it when I meet other christians. We have to get together, doesn't matter in what ways we differ from opinions, at last we all accept Jesus as our Saviour, that's what matters.
I think.
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-09-11, 12:32:28
Thanks Nicky, yes those are my thoughts on the song. I did author that myself, because I feel that not everything has been said about the song.
That's amazing, Paco, because it shows a maturity that I'v only experienced with people far older than you. I would'v betted a Chimay that your Dad had written it. But OK, big kudos to you, pal.
> John Petrucci himself only told about the drowning of the girl and the man who saved her. He's actually very cryptical about it. I'm sure this is what the song is about, or at least I come very close, but I don't think John Petrucci would admit it and keeps a bit on the superficial side of the song.
John P is Genius (I'm sure we can agree on that), also as lyricist, and a devout Catholic too, and at this level it makes no diff at all whether a person is Cath, Prot or whatever. Just like with e.g. Shakespeare, John P's lyrics operate on several diff levels; that's one of the things that are great about them. John wants us to think things out for ourselves, so naturally he only gives out a couple of hints in these directions.
> And indeed, I like it when I meet other christians. We have to get together, doesn't matter in what ways we differ from opinions, at last we all accept Jesus as our Saviour, that's what matters.
For sure.
Have you ever thought about moving professionally in a theological direction, Paco? You're very well versed in all the traditional theological stuff, but beyond that, you could offer the world a progressive dimension derived from your musical and lyrical explorations (and your crazy roomie pals).
Nicky.
In my opinion, the best single verse on whether Christianity teaches reincarnation would be this:
Hebrews 9:27: Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment ...
The references to Elijah, et al, cited here as being about reincarnation probably relate to a prophecy in Malachi 4:
5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."
Some think that referred to John the Baptist and in Jesus day, some thought Jesus himself was the fulfillment (Matthew 16:12-14).
John the Baptist denied being "Elijah" (John 1:21) but Jesus had a different take, it would appear (Matthew 11:14). But I don't think that Jesus was referring to a reincarnation, just a symbolic return. I don't believe that the Jews of Jesus' time taught or believed in reincarnation. One of the big debates between the Pharisees and Sadducees was over whether there was a resurrection of the body at all or whether this life was it. Any ideas about reincarnation might have come from the Greeks or elsewhere and might have filtered into some Jewish thinking, but again, I don't think it was prevalent or widely accepted or even tolerated.
As for Neal Morse, I have real problems with what he believes about the nature of Jesus Christ. If you go through the discussion boards on his web site, you'll understand what I'm talking about. I have raised this issue on a Christian Progressive Rock board and pretty much shouted down, however. Apparently some people don't see this as being very important.
Quote from: kmorse on Mon, 2007-09-17, 16:19:21As for Neal Morse, I have real problems with what he believes about the nature of Jesus Christ. If you go through the discussion boards on his web site, you'll understand what I'm talking about. I have raised this issue on a Christian Progressive Rock board and pretty much shouted down, however. Apparently some people don't see this as being very important.
You mean that he doesn't believe that Jesus is God? He has a very... strange idea about the Trinity indeed.
Yes, I've read that, and I have also real problems with it.
But fortunately it's not recognisable in his songs.
PH,
Correct. His Christology is much closer to that of Arius, the third century teacher who held that Christ was a created being rather than God. So far, it hasn't showed up in his lyrics. Not sure if he'll feel moved to start expressing that idea or not.
Keith
Quote from: kmorse on Wed, 2007-09-19, 04:38:27His Christology is much closer to that of Arius, the third century teacher who held that Christ was a created being rather than God. So far, it hasn't showed up in his lyrics. Not sure if he'll feel moved to start expressing that idea or not.
Well, I think he won't, because he had a lot of critic on his comments on it. But on the other hand maybe he sees it as "his duty" to show us "how it is"...
Difficult, difficult....
-Paco
Can anyone add something to the analysis I did on Ministry Of Lost Souls?
Am I totally wrong on it. Are you not sure about a certain part of the song('s analysis)?
I'm very curious about opinions and different perspectives.
Also another thing.
As a Christian I'm kinda struggling with bands like RPWL which have obviously Hindu influences. A subject to talk about?
-Paco
Paco,
Interpretations are just that: interpretations. Each of us might seen different things in a songwriter's lyrics.
As for RPWL, if you're aware of the influences in their lyrics and firm enough in your own beliefs, there may not be any harm to you at all. Sometimes the biggest danger is giving others the wrong impression of what you think. If you can navigate that issue, then you're okay.
But I understand having concerns. This always brings to mind Paul's admonition about eating meat sacrificed to idols. Acts 15, Romans 14, I Corinthians 8, I Corinthians 10 all deal with the specific topic of meat but some people apply the principle to all kinds of matters.
Keith
Quote from: kmorse on Thu, 2007-10-18, 16:04:00As for RPWL, if you're aware of the influences in their lyrics and firm enough in your own beliefs, there may not be any harm to you at all. Sometimes the biggest danger is giving others the wrong impression of what you think. If you can navigate that issue, then you're okay.
But I understand having concerns. This always brings to mind Paul's admonition about eating meat sacrificed to idols. Acts 15, Romans 14, I Corinthians 8, I Corinthians 10 all deal with the specific topic of meat but some people apply the principle to all kinds of matters.
Hey Keith,
It's good to see that you take things seriously. I can see it in your posts. They're full of wisdom. (Not every christian knows the teachings of Arius for example...)
Thanks for your words but I have some questions:
QuoteAs for RPWL, if you're aware of the influences in their lyrics and firm enough in your own beliefs, there may not be any harm to you at all.
Are you sure? That way I can listen to bands like Dementor (see the "Blasphemy and satanic and/or anti-christian bands" topic (http://shattered-room.net/index.php?topic=1103.0) with a good conscience...
QuoteSometimes the biggest danger is giving others the wrong impression of what you think. If you can navigate that issue, then you're okay.
What exactly do you mean by this?
QuoteBut I understand having concerns. This always brings to mind Paul's admonition about eating meat sacrificed to idols. Acts 15, Romans 14, I Corinthians 8, I Corinthians 10 all deal with the specific topic of meat but some people apply the principle to all kinds of matters.
Ok, I've read Acts 15
[For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you.]
As I read this I'm told that I should abstain from things sacrificed to idols. RPWL's music is 'dedicated' to Shiva. This makes me think that I should abstain from RPWL's music...
What do you think Keith? Nicky? Appelmoes???
-Paco
Paco, first of all, I agree with you that Keith's posts always are very interesting, and that he has a deep understanding of religion. I would gladly see Keith posting more often in the Room.
I think that he has an important point in that the primary thing is for each individual to seek broadly and find his own personal convictions - religious, social, cultural, sexual, and more. As Socrates said: Gnothe autem - know yourself. The more you know about yourself, the better you can understand others - and accept them, and even support them in their otherness.
I am active in the Theosophical Association in Denmark, which gives me a great opportunity to learn about other religions than my personal faith, Christianity. I discover what's common to all the great religions, and therefore at the core of all humans; and on the other hand what makes my religion special, and I therefore have to struggle more with to make my personal conviction.
Another thing I'd like to bring into the discussion is that for me the central part of the Bible is the four Gospels. These I experience as the closest to divine wisdom. Then come the various Epistles, but let's keep in mind that although Paul's wisdom was great beyond our comprehension, what he wrote in his Epistles is still his personal convictions, and not the Absolute Truth. I think it's unwise and can even be manipulative to use his guidelines as a political program, e.g. many believers have used his statements directing women to be silent in gatherings as an argument against women priests, which I find terrible, because women, as we have seen in Lutheran communities, can become as fine priests as men - in some ways different, but they complement each other nicely.
Regarding meat, I think the best is to avoid eating it altogether. Why murder animals unnecessarily, and even worse, make murderers out of other people, when in our civilisation, meateating is basically a bad habit, like smoking, heroine addiction etc., and a misuse of natural resources that is destroying our whole biosphere?
Nicky.
QuoteAnother thing I'd like to bring into the discussion is that for me the central part of the Bible is the four Gospels. These I experience as the closest to divine wisdom. Then come the various Epistles, but let's keep in mind that although Paul's wisdom was great beyond our comprehension, what he wrote in his Epistles is still his personal convictions, and not the Absolute Truth. I think it's unwise and can even be manipulative to use his guidelines as a political program, e.g. many believers have used his statements directing women to be silent in gatherings as an argument against women priests, which I find terrible, because women, as we have seen in Lutheran communities, can become as fine priests as men - in some ways different, but they complement each other nicely.
Hmm, I guess that's where the difference is between what you think and what I think Nicky: I believe that the WHOLE Bible is absolute truth, from Genesis to Revelation. All Godly Inspired. This kind of differences has been fatal in church history, that's why there are so much split churches in The Netherlands.
I agree on the four Gospels being the central part of the Bible though.
-Paco
I wanted you to know that I'm starting an analysis on a certain Threshold song.
Threshold is another band which I really like, especially because of the song lyrics.
They are often very deep and inspired.
Richard West is a christian and therefor I think that Threshold is a justified band for christians! (that sounds so dull... :P)
But of course the discussions about RPWL and my previous analysis on Dream Theater's "Ministry Of Lost Souls" can continue!
I really want to discuss further on that.
Maybe I should start a special thread for my song analyses. I really like it to do them.
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-10-22, 11:20:06
Maybe I should start a special thread for my song analyses. I really like it to do them.
Great idea, Paco. Please go on with it. If an intelligent thought flashes in my mind, I'll contribute :)
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-22, 13:53:29
If an intelligent thought flashes in my mind, I'll contribute :)
Nicky.
Ooooh, you really shouldn't tempt me like that, Nicky... this is screaming for a cheeky reply! ;)
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:27:52
Ooooh, you really shouldn't tempt me like that, Nicky... this is screaming for a cheeky reply! ;)
I for one am waiting. :P ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-22, 13:53:29
If an intelligent thought flashes in my mind, I'll contribute :)
Nicky.
"If" - or "when"...? ;D
Bet he'll hate me for that... ;D
If you guys don't behave, I'll fulfill my plans of making a real-life remake of Fatal Attraction with you two in the main roles ;D
Nicky.
No go - I'm definitely not a 'bunny boiler'! ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:46:06
If you guys don't behave, I'll fulfill my plans of making a real-life remake of Fatal Attraction with you two in the main roles ;D
Nicky.
I think i'll pass on that role. Read the script and it's not interesting. Only the main characters are. ;D
LOL! That was a good one. ;D
I think we've scared Nicky away... :o
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:56:11
LOL! That was a good one. ;D
I think we've scared Nicky away... :o
Lol, I think he's only gone as far as the 'now playing' thread....Mind you, lots of posts to hide up in there ::)
Nope, he's offline... probably gone drinking some beer. ;)
Quote from: bluepony on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:56:11
LOL! That was a good one. ;D
I think we've scared Nicky away... :o
Well i don't think Nick is a resentful guy so i think we shall see him again. ;)
Probably... hopefully not only "if..." (see above) ;)
Quote from: PH on Thu, 2007-10-18, 16:40:04
Hey Keith,
It's good to see that you take things seriously. I can see it in your posts. They're full of wisdom. (Not every christian knows the teachings of Arius for example...)
Thanks for your words but I have some questions:
Are you sure? That way I can listen to bands like Dementor (see the "Blasphemy and satanic and/or anti-christian bands" topic (http://shattered-room.net/index.php?topic=1103.0) with a good conscience...
What exactly do you mean by this?
Paco, I think that the lyrics such as the ones you mention would not appeal to me and would negate any enjoyment I'd get out of the music. Philippians 4:8 comes to mind.
Quote from: PH on Thu, 2007-10-18, 16:40:04
Ok, I've read Acts 15
[For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you.]
As I read this I'm told that I should abstain from things sacrificed to idols. RPWL's music is 'dedicated' to Shiva. This makes me think that I should abstain from RPWL's music...
What do you think Keith? Nicky? Appelmoes???
-Paco
Paco, you make a good point about things sacrificed to idols. Some of Paul's other writings about the issue had to do with buying meat or eating meat at a host's house without knowing if it had been sacrificed to idols. (example: I Cor. 10:25). I believe that if we extend this principle to the music we listen to then the knowledge that RPWL has dedicated its music to Shiva might or should give us pause before listening to it. But I'd ask myself, "What are the lyrics saying?" If they promote a belief or action that you find inconsistent with the Bible, then I think it's best to avoid it. If RPWL played all instrumentals, I'm not so sure it would matter.
On the other hand, I find myself losing my enthusiasm for Neal Morse's music not because of any lyrical content but because of what I now know of his beliefs. So, I think that sometimes people are going to come down on different sides with regard to any particular band or lyrical content. And some believers would say that it is difficult or inadvisable to apply a specific teaching about eating meat to the issue of what music we listen to. Maybe Phillipians 4:8 is the better way to go then.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Thu, 2007-10-18, 22:18:06
Another thing I'd like to bring into the discussion is that for me the central part of the Bible is the four Gospels. These I experience as the closest to divine wisdom. Then come the various Epistles, but let's keep in mind that although Paul's wisdom was great beyond our comprehension, what he wrote in his Epistles is still his personal convictions, and not the Absolute Truth. I think it's unwise and can even be manipulative to use his guidelines as a political program, e.g. many believers have used his statements directing women to be silent in gatherings as an argument against women priests, which I find terrible, because women, as we have seen in Lutheran communities, can become as fine priests as men - in some ways different, but they complement each other nicely.
Regarding meat, I think the best is to avoid eating it altogether. Why murder animals unnecessarily, and even worse, make murderers out of other people, when in our civilisation, meateating is basically a bad habit, like smoking, heroine addiction etc., and a misuse of natural resources that is destroying our whole biosphere?
I side with Paco -- and a good many scholars down through the years -- in believing that Paul's Epistles also are inspired. But I will agree with Nicky that we always have to be careful in applying Paul's writings to modern practice. We must understand as fully as possible the historical, cultural and whatever other contexts we can in which he wrote each letter to the early church. Then we can try to apply what he wrote to situations not specifically addressed in the letters.
As for eating meat or not eating meat, I'll leave you with Paul's thought on the matter in Romans 14:6:
"He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."
Quote
Sometimes the biggest danger is giving others the wrong impression of what you think. If you can navigate that issue, then you're okay.
What exactly do you mean by this?
The best example I can think of is if a typical American fellow Christian were to look at my CD collection, they would see very little that he or she was familiar with. That might leave him with the impression that in some way I was not a sincere believer. Beyond that, if they were to see CDs by a band such as Opeth, they might really be put off. I could spend a bunch of time trying to explain why I have no problems of conscience with Opeth's lyrics but many people would simply react emotionally and not listen. Opeth is probably the most extreme example I can come up with from my music collection. It is certainly not one dominated by black metal or blasphemous music. Some would argue that I should avoid the very appearance of evil, but I think that in this case, it's just as easy to not discuss my musical tastes with people who would not understand the subtleties. That's how I "navigate" the issue, for the most part: I avoid it. And yet I don't think I am concealing anything evil in my character or actions by doing so. It's just not something I consider important enough to discuss with most of my fellow believers.
Getting back to meat, I could perhaps apply I Corinthians 8:13:
"Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."
In this case, it's not a matter of eating meat -- or being seen eating meat (remembering that the issue here was eating meat that had been or possibly had been sacrificed to idols -- but just bringing up the subject of music at all and causing him to "fall," or in this case make an incorrect judgement about my character based on something he doesn't fully understand or appreciate.
I hope this makes sense.;
Quote from: maddox on Mon, 2007-10-22, 15:53:33
I think i'll pass on that role. Read the script and it's not interesting. Only the main characters are. ;D
That's exactly why I've casted you for the main male role, Maddox ???
But if you'd prefer the main female role, you can have that instead, as far as I'm concerned. I'd just like to warn you that she ends up in pretty bad shape - and we'd first have to remove some tissue on you in that case.
Nicky.
Quote from: kmorse on Mon, 2007-10-22, 16:29:50
I side with Paco -- and a good many scholars down through the years -- in believing that Paul's Epistles also are inspired.
I personally would prefer to leave that question open, Keith. It also depends on what one means by "inspired". I consider myself to be inspired when I get a new good idea, like joining the Room, and I don't know from how high up that comes: from my higher self, the angelic plane, Christ?
In any case, we can all agree that St. Paul had some very extraordinary things to tell us, and that's why I characterise him with the restrained word "wise". I think that most of us also consider that his directions were to some extent contextual, related to his time and place, and we therefore should regard them with a critical mind.
As to the treatment of animals, I see in the evolution of mankind a growth of charity - happily. In Paul's time and place, it was a hard job keeping humans from killing each other. In present-day Western Europe, humans live relatively peacefully with each other; however, our treatment of animals is terrible (similar to the Nazis' treatment of Jews, homosexuals, and others that
they considered inferior), and I think the time is ripe to start extending our charity to our fellow
beings on this earth (not only humans), and help them too have a full life in accordance with their resp. dynamics. An extra bonus would be that we could economise far better with our natural resources.
Nicky.
Nicky,
My definition of "inspired" would be "God-breathed." God spoke *through" the writers of the gospels and epistles without obliterating their personalities or simply dictating as I think Muslims believe Allah did when he gave Muhammed the Q'uran.
Then, in the 4th century, the early church got together and sorted out what was acceptable and what wasn't. I believe God had control over that process as well. The result was a Bible that is consistent and whose apparent contradictions can be resolved with a proper understanding of the entire context and intent of their writing.
Your example of Paul's instructions on women speaking in church is a good one. My understanding is that Paul was speaking to a church where the women had a habit of interrupting the preaching service by asking their husbands questions. This was part about keeping the order and perhaps some of Paul's cultural differences with his Greek congregations. I don't think it really spoke to the matter of women leading a church. Now there*are* some other places where Paul talks about the qualifications for elders and deacons. The sticking point is usually the phrase "husband of one wife" and the issue becomes "do we apply that literally or is it a principle? If we apply it literally, then, men without a wife are not qualified. Or is it a principle that has more to do with overall fidelity. Or maybe single men should't be church leaders. Perhaps the temptation toward sexual impropriety would have been too strong. Lots of things to consider.
Nicky, I respect your ideas on how our attitude toward the treatment of animals might be evolving. Perhaps it is like our attitude toward smoking -- at least here in parts of the U.S. It is becoming very unacceptable (which is fine by me). However, I just would never consider eating meat or not eating meat to be a matter of whether I am "saved" in the Christian sense or not.
Lastly, I want to thank everyone for their civil tones in this discussion. Here in the U.S., it seems that all people want to do is quarrel over these things rather than discuss and understand one another.
Cheers,
Keith
Quote from: kmorse on Wed, 2007-10-24, 19:48:25
My definition of "inspired" would be "God-breathed." God spoke *through" the writers of the gospels and epistles without obliterating their personalities or simply dictating as I think Muslims believe Allah did when he gave Muhammed the Q'uran.
Nice, Keith. Full agreement here.
> Then, in the 4th century, the early church got together and sorted out what was acceptable and what wasn't. I believe God had control over that process as well. The result was a Bible that is consistent and whose apparent contradictions can be resolved with a proper understanding of the entire context and intent of their writing.
I agree, except that the Church Fathers at the time might have left out some things that we could use today, like aspects of Judas.
> Your example of Paul's instructions on women speaking in church is a good one. My understanding is that Paul was speaking to a church where the women had a habit of interrupting the preaching service by asking their husbands questions. This was part about keeping the order and perhaps some of Paul's cultural differences with his Greek congregations. I don't think it really spoke to the matter of women leading a church.
Didn't know about the extent of disorder during services. Interesting aspect.
> Now there*are* some other places where Paul talks about the qualifications for elders and deacons. The sticking point is usually the phrase "husband of one wife" and the issue becomes "do we apply that literally or is it a principle? If we apply it literally, then, men without a wife are not qualified. Or is it a principle that has more to do with overall fidelity. Or maybe single men should't be church leaders. Perhaps the temptation toward sexual impropriety would have been too strong. Lots of things to consider.
I think that the important thing is to ensure that the libido of the elders and deacons is at rest while they're at their job, whether they're men, women, married, single, homosexual, or whatever. A restless libido can create terrible distress, as we've seen with the Catholic priests in question.
> Nicky, I respect your ideas on how our attitude toward the treatment of animals might be evolving. Perhaps it is like our attitude toward smoking -- at least here in parts of the U.S. It is becoming very unacceptable (which is fine by me). However, I just would never consider eating meat or not eating meat to be a matter of whether I am "saved" in the Christian sense or not.
Agree with you fully on your last point. I just think that, in our present civilisation, we could live more lovingly and respectfully as vegetarians.
> Lastly, I want to thank everyone for their civil tones in this discussion. Here in the U.S., it seems that all people want to do is quarrel over these things rather than discuss and understand one another.
In any case, the Room is a great place for all sorts of discussions. Let's keep it that way.
Nicky.
Nicky,
If by "aspects of Judas," you mean some of the gnostic gospels, I think those were best left out. Especially with regard to the recently publicized "Gospel of Judas." It is a very late entry to the party, having been written some time in the 3rd century, I believe. The four Gospels that made it in all were wrapped up by the end of the first century, without much doubt. There are scholars who place their writing later than that, but in my study, I've leaned toward the earlier dates.
Even what's in the Gospels about Judas gives us some food for speculation. What were his motives? Did he really belive Jesus was the Messiah or was he an impostor from the start? Did he grow disillusioned and decide to cash in or did he have a plan that went awry? This side of heaven, we can't know for sure, I suppose, but we can muse about it some for now.
Keith
Apologies for going slightly off topic , but i am not sure of another band's website where i could post this.
http://parishofheswall-yc.sampasite.com/
If you tab down a bit you will see the testimony i wrote and read out at our local church at pentecost. Any comments or feedback would be greattfully received.
Thanks for reading
Quote from: funkster on Sat, 2007-10-27, 03:33:28
Any comments or feedback would be greattfully received.
Thanks for sharing, Funkster.
I think many of us here have had similar big experiences, where our life has atrophied for a while, then at a critical point we began to pray and seek, and all of a sudden, light broke through.
Life is really a bitch when the God-connection is missing.
Nicky.
I sort of agree with Nicky here. Paul's letter's are one of the main reason why I think the bible makes God look like a hypocrite. There's a whole book about sexualtity in the old testament. A testomony to the beauty of it, and then Paul comes along saying that sex is bad, BAD! And that people would be better off not being maried... Stuff like that make me believe that the church would be better off without his letters. They are way to confusing and sometimes downright contradictive to other partso f the bible.
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Sun, 2007-10-28, 11:56:49
I sort of agree with Nicky here. Paul's letter's are one of the main reason why I think the bible makes God look like a hypocrite. There's a whole book about sexualtity in the old testament. A testomony to the beauty of it, and then Paul comes along saying that sex is bad, BAD! And that people would be better off not being maried... Stuff like that make me believe that the church would be better off without his letters. They are way to confusing and sometimes downright contradictive to other partso f the bible.
Appelmoes??, can you give me the exact chapter and verse?
Oh and by the way, if you think it's so contradictive, why do you believe Solomon instead of Paul? Solomon had over 1000 wives... you bet he thought sex was good!
I'm not saying that sex is bad though. LOL.
But anyway, I always thought of Solomon as a bit of a hypocrite.
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-10-29, 09:22:07
Solomon had over 1000 wives... you bet he thought sex was good!
Good'n Paco ;D
How bout making a poll in the Room: What's best: prog, beer, or sex? :D ;D
Nicky.
Haha, at the moment I'd say prog.
Beer is out of the question and for the third I'd like to ask: what exactly is 'sex'?
There's so many definitions.
;)
Well, Solomon might have had 1000 wives, but we were talking about sex and sexuality. Not about polygamy ;)
(Besides, the bible is at least very clear about this. It says Solomon was wrong and that a man should have one wive...)
About chapters or versus, just read any letter from Paul and it will come up. Some more than others though...
Hey wake up Appy! Why would he have 1000 wives?
For the cleaning?
For the dishes?
No no no no no...
Of course he wrote a whole book about his favourite spare time activities. Why would he have written it?
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-10-29, 12:07:07
... and for the third I'd like to ask: what exactly is 'sex'?
If you don't know, your girlfriend will, Paco :D
Nicky.
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-10-29, 12:07:07
Haha, at the moment I'd say prog. Beer is out of the question ...
Paco, in case you didn't know, prog and beer are two sides of the same thing. Isn't that right, John?
Nicky.
Hehehe, I was just trying to bring you to a deeper level of this conversation.
When we say "sex", it can mean the action of which a possible child is the result. (How's that for a cryptical answer?)
But it can also be taken much broader. Hugging and kissing for instance.
Then even holding hands is part of sex.
;)
-Paco
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-29, 17:37:52Paco, in case you didn't know, prog and beer are two sides of the same thing. Isn't that right, John?
I think John will disagree.
He just went to see The Watch and didn't touch a drop of beer.
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-10-29, 17:22:53
Hey wake up Appy! Why would he have 1000 wives?
For the cleaning?
For the dishes?
No no no no no...
Of course he wrote a whole book about his favourite spare time activities. Why would he have written it?
Political mariages? Remember he was the peace bringer. Marying a lot of princessen and stuff will help a lot.
(You're sounding a bit smartassy btw, which is exactly the reason why I don't like discussing stuff like this.)
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-10-29, 17:38:54
Hugging and kissing for instance.
Hugging and kissing are on each their side of the dividing line, Paco. I'll gladly give you a hug, but for kisses you'll have to go somewhere else.
Nicky.
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Mon, 2007-10-29, 17:42:09
... peace bringer. Marying a lot of princessen and stuff will help a lot.
I'll keep that one in mind. "Baby, I'm the peace bringer ...." ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-29, 17:44:09Hugging and kissing are on each their side of the dividing line, Paco. I'll gladly give you a hug, but for kisses you'll have to go somewhere else.
It all depends on the culture and the way of doing it.
When a girl celebrates her birthday I give her a kiss. This is an entirely different kiss and in a totally different setting than giving my girlfriend a kiss.
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-10-29, 17:49:46
It all depends on the culture and the way of doing it.
When a girl celebrates her birthday I give her a kiss. This is an entirely different kiss and in a totally different setting than giving my girlfriend a kiss.
Yeah, OK, Paco, accepted. But when that's said, I must say that the French megasmooching aint my thing.
Nicky.
I wanted to reply again but then I realised that I didn't even know the actual original topic...
So let's get on topic again! It's been a while.
If you wanna discuss any further, make a new topic Nicky.
(I sound like an administrator/moderator. Where's Peter?? HEY PETER!)
This was the most recent reply that still made sense:
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Sun, 2007-10-28, 11:56:49
I sort of agree with Nicky here. Paul's letter's are one of the main reason why I think the bible makes God look like a hypocrite. There's a whole book about sexualtity in the old testament. A testomony to the beauty of it, and then Paul comes along saying that sex is bad, BAD! And that people would be better off not being maried... Stuff like that make me believe that the church would be better off without his letters. They are way to confusing and sometimes downright contradictive to other partso f the bible.
You don't think that Paul deserves a smooch, Paco?
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-10-29, 17:58:10
I wanted to reply again but then I realised that I didn't even know the actual original topic...
And you're even the one who started it all.
Nicky.
I don't think he would approve.
Now GET BACK ON TOPIC YOU #$%^@
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Sun, 2007-10-28, 11:56:49
I sort of agree with Nicky here. Paul's letter's are one of the main reason why I think the bible makes God look like a hypocrite. There's a whole book about sexualtity in the old testament. A testomony to the beauty of it, and then Paul comes along saying that sex is bad, BAD! And that people would be better off not being maried... Stuff like that make me believe that the church would be better off without his letters. They are way to confusing and sometimes downright contradictive to other partso f the bible.
Appelmoes,
I don't think Paul was saying sex was bad -- at least not sex within the confines of marriage. But I *do* think that he was so single-minded in his pursuit of preaching the Gospel that he considered *anything* even sex to be a distraction from his primary purpose. His personal preference was that people remain single and pursue preaching the Gospel, but he didn't forbid marriage. Now, some of the gnostics -- who already were popping up even in Paul's and John's time -- *did* forbid marriage. This might very well be why the subject comes up in some of Paul's letters.
As a Pharisee, Paul no doubt had been married -- it was almost required -- and probably was not unfamiliar with sex. It's quite possible that upon his conversion, he was abandoned by his wife and family (this is just a guess on my part). Paul *did* say that "the marriage bed is undefiled" (Hebrews 13:4) and made several other comments along those lines which indicate to me that he had no objection to sex.
Also, Appelmoes, you made a comment in a different thread about the God of the OT and the God of the NT being "different" in that the OT God was vengeful and such while the God of the NT is forgiving. I've long seen no difference between the God of the two Testaments. There's plenty of fire and brimstone in both. I think that if you did a survey of Jesus' statements, you'll find he spoke quite often about Hell as well as forgiveness and salvation. By the same token, the God of the OT often spoke of forgiveness and reconciliation. In fact, I see the entire OT taken as a whole is just a big buildup to the arrival of the Messiah. Granted, there is a lot of bloodshed and debauchery along the way, but that mostly just shows that mankind just can't do it on his own. God had to step in from time to time and call "Time out!"
So, that is a matter that I often jump in and dispute: the "differences" between the "Gods of the two Testaments."
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-10-29, 18:03:24And you're even the one who started it all.
Yes, you're right. :(
My fault. I'm sorry.
@kmorse
I couldn't agree more!
The Bible shows a red line through all of it.
This red line is God's Word.
God gave His Word (In Genesis, after man fell into sin, He promised that He would save mankind.)
God gave His Word (Jesus is the Word that became flesh (John 1:1-18). God sent His Son and fulfilled the promise He did.)
God gave His Word (The Bible. God gave this Book to read all about it and to see this red line.)
The whole Bible is a Word about reconcilation. When you read it in that perspective, you'll see that God has always been the same.
Keith, since you are quite an expert on the Bible and Christianity, I'd like to have your comments on the question: Why is the historicity of Christ so sparse? He didn't exactly make it easy for us to believe in Him, in fact His pure materiality is even questioned by many historians.
If anyone else wants to chip in, then you're welcome.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-10-30, 15:48:15
Keith, since you are quite an expert on the Bible and Christianity, I'd like to have your comments on the question: Why is the historicity of Christ so sparse? He didn't exactly make it easy for us to believe in Him, in fact His pure materiality is even questioned by many historians.
If anyone else wants to chip in, then you're welcome.
Nicky.
Well, Nicky, the trick is, you shall
believe, not
know...
Thing is that I'm a person of faith - have been pretty much all of my life - and I'm also a trained scientist, and it's my main pursuit to make these two domains meet.
Thus I'm seeking people who have trod this path before me. Hegel and Thomas Aquinas are two of the most interesting thinkers here.
Nicky.
I don't really get what you're saying. Can you please be more specific?
OK, Paco, I'll try in a different way: On the one hand, I'm a believer (person of faith). On the other hand, I want facts and logical procedures (scientist). These are two very different stances toward the world.
After Newton, scientists increasingly turned away from religion, regarding it as superstition. However, the modern thinking wo/man is very much alive in both domains (faith and science) and wants to bring them together. One of the best figures in literature to represent this is Faust.
Hope that helped - and added.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-10-30, 21:35:27OK, Paco, I'll try in a different way: On the one hand, I'm a believer (person of faith). On the other hand, I want facts and logical procedures (scientist). These are two very different stances toward the world.
That's got nothing to do with being a scientist or not. Everybody wants facts, it's natural. That's why believing requires trust. Trust in something (Someone) you can't see. "Seeing is believing" is such a paradoxal sentence...
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-10-30, 21:35:27After Newton, scientists increasingly turned away from religion, regarding it as superstition. However, the modern thinking wo/man is very much alive in both domains (faith and science) and wants to bring them together. One of the best figures in literature to represent this is Faust.
The problem is that scientists keep interfering with religion. The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins is a good example.
I think science is cool! But not the kind of science that's interfering with religion.
Science is the art of describing what one can see, which is wonderful! (When I throw something in the air it comes back down! Yippee!)
Faith is something different. You can't describe it, but you know it's there.
Be careful not to make faith some sort of science.
-Paco
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-10-30, 15:48:15
Keith, since you are quite an expert on the Bible and Christianity, I'd like to have your comments on the question: Why is the historicity of Christ so sparse? He didn't exactly make it easy for us to believe in Him, in fact His pure materiality is even questioned by many historians.
If anyone else wants to chip in, then you're welcome.
Nicky.
Well since you ask.
What i would like to know and that's one of the reasons why i'm still in doubt is why it took +400 years to write the bible. :-\
After Jesus died, during the Roman reign as you all know, there wasn't any room for any religion but the Roman kind, whatever that was. To my knowledge nothing was allowed.
No offence of course but if they wrote the Bible a few years after the crucifixion instead of +400 it would make sense. People who witnessed the event or heard about it are reliable sources. Having that said, I fail to see the reliability.
There too many years in between.
Or am i totally wrong here? :-[
I REALLY want to get back on topic...
So on the very first page of this thread Nicky asked me with what kind of lyrics (from Dream Theater) I have problems with.
For example this bit (from In The Presence Of Enemies Pt. 2):
Lord,
You are my god and my shepherd
Nothing more shall I want
Walk,
Through the abyss
Into the shadow of death
Fear,
There is no evil to fear now
For I know you are with me
My,
Cup overflows
With my enemy's blood
I,
Decay in the house of the lord
Forever, amen
Death,
Will follow me
All the days of my life
Why did they alter it?
The original Psalm said:
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
They cut out some parts of it.
And they add some things to it, like "with my enemy's blood", which makes the Psalm much more like a war song, while it is a song about rest and peace (He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.)
And "Death will follow me all the days of my life" is quite a difference with "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life".
In my eyes this is surely NOT good. What Dream Theater is doing here is altering the original Psalm so that the message is now the contrary of what it was meant to be.
This strikes me and I'm really sad about it. Especially when knowing that 3/5 of DT is christian.
Dream Theater is a very complicated band, I cannot see what their overall message exactly is, with all these contradicted lyrics.
-Paco
Quote from: maddox on Tue, 2007-10-30, 22:13:48Or am i totally wrong here? :-[
In fact... yes you are.
The New Testament (I think you meant that by saying "The Bible" ;)) was mostly written by eye witnesses 30 years after Jesus died (and was resurrected! ;))
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-10-30, 22:26:04
In fact... yes you are.
The New Testament (I think you meant that by saying "The Bible" ;)) was mostly written by eye witnesses 30 years after Jesus died (and was resurrected! ;))
-Paco
Ok, that clears things up. :D
You see? I'm definitely no expert on this matter. :-[
*I'll keep quite now. ;)
Quote from: maddox on Tue, 2007-10-30, 22:27:14You see? I'm definitely no expert on this matter. :-[
That doesn't matter!
I'm absolutely no expert either, I just read it in a (very interesting) article a few minutes before you just asked! (wow!)
If you have some spare time you can read it here (http://web.mac.com/mark.verver/Site_2/Betoog.html).
It's in Dutch, so it wouldn't be to hard. :P
Quote from: maddox on Tue, 2007-10-30, 22:27:14*I'll keep quite now. ;)
No please! Don't!
I really appreciate it when others give their opinions on it! That's what a discussion board is for, right?
Besides, thinking and talking about topics like this keeps things fresh!
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-10-30, 22:36:56
That doesn't matter!
I'm absolutely no expert either, I just read it in a (very interesting) article a few minutes before you just asked! (wow!)
If you have some spare time you can read it here (http://web.mac.com/mark.verver/Site_2/Betoog.html).
It's in Dutch, so it wouldn't be to hard. :P
That could work even for me. ;D
Thanks. Will read it tomorrow. I'm off now. ;)
QuoteNo please! Don't!
I really appreciate it when others give their opinions on it! That's what a discussion board is for, right?
Besides, thinking and talking about topics like this keeps things fresh!
Agree with you on that. ;)
Quote from: maddox on Tue, 2007-10-30, 22:40:39That could work even for me. ;D
Thanks. Will read it tomorrow. I'm off now. ;)
Oh by the way, don't let the title of the article put you off...
The whole article is trying to be evidence based, but sometimes I think it's not really all-covering...
For now I say to you: Sleep well Maddox!
Thanks for dropping by!
-Paco
(http://www.arjenlucassen.com/board/images/smiles/icon_wave.gif)
;D
Quote from: maddox on Tue, 2007-10-30, 22:13:48
Or am i totally wrong here? :-[
Yes, you are Maddox. As Keith already mentioned in this thread, the four canonised Gospels were in the state as recorded in the New Testament before the end of the first century A.D. (before year 100).
What puzzles me is that if Christ made such a deep impression on so many people as we read in the Gospels, then why isn't there much more written about him in the historical records?
Nicky.
Nicky,
On the historicity of Christ, how about I put together a little reading list for you?
Now, I'm not sure if you're talking about contemporary historians? Josephus is the one who comes to mind. A couple of other Roman historians mention Jesus Christ, too.
There's some pretty solid archaeological evidence (i.e. engravings, whatnot that reference Christ that can be dated to 1st or 2nd century).
Generally, I'd say this: You might debate His nature -- man, maniac or Messiah -- but His historical credentials are pretty solid. There is a new wave of Christ-denial cropping up (as in "He never existed") but these fads come and go.
Most *conservative* scholars put the authorship of all the canonized books of the Bible within the first century. Gnostic books continued to be written well into the third century -- maybe beyond. The big reason for the Council at Nicea was to decide which ones went in and which ones didn't. I don't recall there being a lot of close votes. Books either were solidly supported or roundly rejected.
Keith
Quote from: kmorse on Wed, 2007-10-31, 03:30:53Now, I'm not sure if you're talking about contemporary historians? Josephus is the one who comes to mind. A couple of other Roman historians mention Jesus Christ, too.
Josephus was a Jew though.
A Roman Jew, since he surrendered to Roman emperor Titus in the Jewish War.
Anyway, here you can read his works:
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/author?name=Josephus,%20Flavius
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-10-30, 21:52:18
Be careful not to make faith some sort of science.
No, but we can substantiate faith with science, that is, the proper kind of science: a humanistic science.
We have to be careful to distinguish between the different purposes of science. Consumerism is a madness that's gone haywire in our society, because people don't experience much depth in their lives, and they're constantly fleeing from facing the emptiness in their lives by buying gadgets and sensational experiences. There is a science that supports this mad consumerism, and that's what can be called the Whore in the Apocalypse. I have to give the Muslims the credit of seeing this problem clearer than most Christians do today.
On the other hand, humanistic science is the science that i.a. substantiates the Life and Message of Christ, that brings His Charity and Salvation into light, and inspires us to deliver ourselves in the practice of charity towards all fellows beings on earth.
Nicky.
Quote from: kmorse on Wed, 2007-10-31, 03:30:53
On the historicity of Christ, how about I put together a little reading list for you?
Keith & Paco, thanks for the reference and link to Josephus. I'm now browsing through the internet texts.
Keith, I'd be happy to get some more references to the historicity of Christ.
Nicky.
Josephus is an appealing historical source authority on Christ in that he could almost be labeled a "hostile source." He had no interest in promoting Christ, as one could say, for instance, about the writers of the Gospels. His interest was merely in recording events and other notes of historical interest.
Some people consider Josephus' works to be authoritative *except* when he's writing about Christ. That section of his work they dismiss. I find that comical, but not surprising.
Nicky, I'll try to work up a reading list. The problem might be that most of my list will be American titles. Will that be a problem?
Quote from: kmorse on Wed, 2007-10-31, 12:50:48
Nicky, I'll try to work up a reading list. The problem might be that most of my list will be American titles. Will that be a problem?
Not at all. I have about 600 books by American authors.
I'm actually very American myself, in that my Dad grew up in Brookings, South Dakota (can you find any place more American than that?), and I lived 2½ years in various places in the States, East & West.
So, Yankee Doodle Dandy!
Thanks, Keith.
Nicky.
Well, Nicky, you could start with with wikipedia page. There's an extensive bibliography at the end plus the article itself contains a lot of links. Wikipedia articles always come with the warning that they're subject to editing but I glanced over this one and it seems fair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
South Dakota, eh? Rather than "Yankee Doodle Dandy" more like "Yippee-kay-eyeyay."
Were you a cowboy?
Quote from: kmorse on Fri, 2007-11-02, 01:24:36
Well, Nicky, you could start with with wikipedia page. There's an extensive bibliography at the end plus the article itself contains a lot of links. Wikipedia articles always come with the warning that they're subject to editing but I glanced over this one and it seems fair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Thanks, Keith, will check up on it.
I read that Josephus' references to Jesus are highly debated.
> South Dakota, eh? Rather than "Yankee Doodle Dandy" more like "Yippee-kay-eyeyay."
You're right, I mixed up North and South there :D
> Were you a cowboy?
More an Indian. My bro and I (great having a bro almost the same age) made bows and arrows. We started shooting at ducks and smaller boys, but sometimes we got so much into it that we also shot at each other, and one of his arrows once got stuck in one of my eyes, but fortunately beside the pupil, so I was in shape again in a few days. But after that shocking experience we became more careful.
Else I'd say I grew up being very much of a city guy. I'v always been physically in good shape, and done a lot of physical exercise, but I tend more toward books (and now internet, hm, hm) than nature swooning.
Guess that's also why I'v become veg. Nature people tend to live so undifferentiated that animals become a bit like a fruit you can just pick, disregarding their integrity.
Long answer, but I hope entertaining.
Nicky.
I've come across writers who consider everything by Josephus to be authoritative *except* his references to Jesus. That makes me suspicious about their motives.
Back to my original question (http://shattered-room.net/index.php?topic=1105.msg24803#msg24803) (no one answered it yet). :-\
I think I've made clear why I am (as a christian) very disappointed in the lyrics on Systematic Chaos (except for Ministry Of Lost Souls).
Especially when keeping in mind that James LaBrie, John Petrucci and John Myung are christians (and Mike and Jordan being Jewish).
Today I found the inspiration for the song In The Presence Of Enemies (http://faq.dtnorway.com/question/1098) and it doesn't change my opinion.
More the opposite actually... :'(
Can anyone shed any light on this matter? What is Dream Theater doing here? :-[
Thanks in advance,
Paco
Paco,
Nothing specific comes to mind, other than they're drawing on some bad influences, even if they think they're making a statement.
Also keep in mind that there are wolves in sheep's clothing out there. However, I don't know that I'd even characterize DT as that. They do not make their faith very public, at least in my view, so I'm not sure they're really masquerading. Nominally, they may be Christians but not "in the heart," so to speak. Or they may be very immature in their faith and beliefs and therefore subject to all kinds of bad influence. I can't judge their hearts, only offer possibilities.
Did you read the comments on that page? And the accusations of plagiarism? It's all very interesting. I've grown weary of DT myself, so this whole matter is neither here nor there with me.
And Nicky, I haven't forgotten the reading list, although that Wikipedia page should be a good start.
Quote from: kmorse on Sat, 2007-11-10, 16:34:41Did you read the comments on that page? And the accusations of plagiarism? It's all very interesting. I've grown weary of DT myself, so this whole matter is neither here nor there with me.
Then I'd really like to see what our "Dream Theater fanatic" (Nicky) has to say.
It's very difficult, since some of their lyrics are very constructive and encouraging. But with these kind of lyrics I tend to believe that they are very contradicting themselves. And Keith, like you said: They never really expressed that they are christians. At least not in a way that Neal Morse does.
Talking about extremes...
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Sat, 2007-11-10, 16:15:24
Back to my original question (http://shattered-room.net/index.php?topic=1105.msg24803#msg24803) (no one answered it yet). :-\
I think I've made clear why I am (as a christian) very disappointed in the lyrics on Systematic Chaos (except for Ministry Of Lost Souls).
Especially when keeping in mind that James LaBrie, John Petrucci and John Myung are christians (and Mike and Jordan being Jewish).
Today I found the inspiration for the song In The Presence Of Enemies (http://faq.dtnorway.com/question/1098) and it doesn't change my opinion.
More the opposite actually... :'(
Can anyone shed any light on this matter? What is Dream Theater doing here? :-[
Thanks in advance,
Paco
Well i read it through, which was a rough ride to say the least, but the way i see it the song is based upon a comic. There are a lot of similarities between ITPOE and Priest (the comic) and to me the tie does make sense.
I can understand the harshness of the story bothers you. It is indeed pretty rough but nevertheless i see it as a story. Fiction just to entertain people.
Either you like it or not, that's a different story. :-\
Quote from: PH on Sat, 2007-11-10, 16:50:28
Then I'd really like to see what our "Dream Theater fanatic" (Nicky) has to say.
It's true that I'm a big fan of DT, and I find their lyrics very profound.
However, I'm rather new to DT, and by no means one of the biggest DT-experts in the Room.
I
do find much more depth in The Ministry than can be expressed by "comic" and "fiction" though - was this a joke on your side, Mad?
At the moment I'm too Tennish to go in depth with any other group, but knowing myself, I can't leave a question like Paco's here
unturned, so I'll
return.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sat, 2007-11-10, 17:24:42
I do find much more depth in The Ministry than can be expressed by "comic" and "fiction" though - was this a joke on your side, Mad?
No, no joke. I meant it as i said.
The problem with these kind of lyrics, as you will, is that sometimes your mind goes wandering off.
Sometimes its better to stick with the lyrics as they are: lyrics. Not every lyric has to be autobiographic.
Like i said, i admit that the lyrics of ITPOE are somewhat un-Dreamtheaterish and i can imagine that it might be too hard to swallow for some.
Nothing but respect and understanding for that. ;)
(http://www.dtnorway.com/itpoe/Priestv01c004p106.jpg)
"My cup overflows with the blood of the slaughtered lamb"?!?!?!?! :o
I think this is very distasteful. And very offensive towards christians. That being said, I clearly don't like comics like that. And I can imagine that most christians wouldn't like it.
Satanic Metal bands (like the ones mentioned in the satanic-metal thread) that take these comic as an inspiration, I can follow that.
But how can John Petrucci (said to be a christian) base the lyrics on something like that? Why would he want to read it in the first place?
This really confuses me. ???
Paco, how about becoming a member of VoicesUK? There you can probably find extensive discussions on DT-lyrics. And you can meet Mad and have a cool beer with him there - and even share some ch* - which aint too bad, huh?
Nicky.
C'mon Nicky, you sure got an opinion about this.
Don't leave us in the dark.
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Sun, 2007-11-11, 19:39:45
C'mon Nicky, you sure got an opinion about this.
No, sorry, Paco. (Thanks for the compliment.) :)
When my bank is willing to give a credit card again, I'll immediately seek membership of VoicesUK. Before informing myself there, I won't consider myself competent to comment on these things. I
do however consider the DT guys to be very serious musicians and philosophers (JP and MP iac), and quite honestly, I don't understand Keith's very serious qualms ??? ???
Maybe the difference is that I'm quite willing to take very poetic renditions of Biblical themes?
I find The Ministry a very beautiful poetic depiction of both the relationship between humans, and Christ's reaching a hand to us, as you very nicely described it earlier, Paco.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-11-11, 20:41:44No, sorry, Paco. (Thanks for the compliment.) :)
Have you read my earlier post (http://shattered-room.net/index.php?topic=1105.msg25360#msg25360)?
Have you read the lyrics to In The Presence Of Enemies (part 1 and part 2)?
Have you read the inspiration for In The Presence Of Enemies (http://faq.dtnorway.com/question/1098)?
If "yes" is an answer to at least two of these questions, then I guess you DO have at least a feeling about it. ;D
Especially since you commented earlier that you like the lyrics of Dream Theater and you also like DT's latest album.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-11-11, 20:41:44When my bank is willing to give a credit card again, I'll immediately seek membership of VoicesUK. Before informing myself there, I won't consider myself competent to comment on these things.
Why not? I consider myself competent enough to comment on this (I can read the lyrics, I can read the Bible, I can form an opinion based on those two). So I guess if I can, than you certainly can.
Nicky, I believe you are competent enough to give your humble opinion. ;) I have faith in you. :) I think we all can learn something from each other. So don't be afraid. I make some mistakes myself. :D
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-11-11, 20:41:44I do however consider the DT guys to be very serious musicians and philosophers (JP and MP iac)
Me too, but we have to think for ourselves. And I think it's good to point out the differences between what I believe and what Dream Theater (or any other artist) believes. This makes you conscious/aware of your own believes ("What exactly do I believe?") and it can also confirm or even improve your own believe ("Yes, I do believe this" or maybe "No I don't believe this"). And sometimes you even have to adapt your own believes ("Hey, I never thought of that!"). This concerns all of us. Christians have another level: to test these adaptations with the Bible.
(Don't know how to put it in English properly... But I tried...)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-11-11, 20:41:44and quite honestly, I don't understand Keith's very serious qualms ??? ???
I do understand it. But of course (and Keith also said that) it's not us who can judge their hearts, fortunately. But as listeners to the music, we HAVE to be awake. So I'd rather be too serious than too naïve. <-- I'm not saying that you are, Nicky! Quite the contrary actually. And that's what I like: all of us like to think about the music and the purpose of the artists. Which is a good thing.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-11-11, 20:41:44I find The Ministry a very beautiful poetic depiction of both the relationship between humans, and Christ's reaching a hand to us, as you very nicely described it earlier, Paco.
Yes, me too. That's why I really LOVE that song, and that's also why I almost can't believe that John Petrucci wrote both songs... For me it is very contradictive. But I don't wave Dream Theater goodbye, maybe I'm missing something and perhaps I have some "adaptations" to make. That's why I put it in this topic, to see what others have to say about it. :)
Just listened to three of my fave DT-songs: Lifting Shadows, Take Away My Pain, and The Ministry.
DT, i.a. in these songs, have as major themes: soul mates, loneliness, standing at water's edge, the other world.
In Lifting Shadows:
He seems alone and silent
thoughts remain without an answer
Afraid and uninvited
he slowly drifts away
She can turn a drop of water
Into an ocean
As the rain is pouring down
tears of sorrow wash his mind
He pours his soul into the water
reflecting the mystery
She carries him away
and the winds die slowly
Lifting shadows
off a Dream once broken
In Take Away My Pain:
I was standing by the edge of the water
I noticed my reflection in the waves
Then I saw you looking back at me
And I knew that for a moment
You were calling out my name
You took away my hero
Will you take away my pain
Take away my pain
Let the cold inside
It's time to let it rain
There's nothing left to hide
In The Ministry:
The water's edge
Is where she waits
Lost soul still wandering
Meant to die
But she's stuck not crossing over
The other side
Is where he waits
His spirit reaching out
Meant to save
But she's too scared
To take his hand
Paco, I think the basic story Petrucci is telling us in The Ministry is that a women was on the verge of dying, but she was saved by a man, who himself died in the process. He tried to help her from the other side, but she couldn't any longer pick up her life, she atrophied instead. To what extent it's because she missed him, and to what extent she felt that she unrighteously got her life back at the expense of his, I find difficult to gauge.
Now it's become clear to both that it doesn't make any sense for her to stay on this side, but at the same time, she's afraid to let go. So that's the terrible drama taking place in her soul.
There are some further themes that I cannot yet grasp.
One can of course add further layers of meaning to this basic story. These are great lyrics.
Nicky.
Yeah, nice.
Have you already delved deeper into the meaning (and the story behind) In The Presence Of Enemies, Nicky? ;D
-Paco
Paco, I'm letting DT rest for a while :D During the summer, I listened a lot to them, particularly SC. Real great music, for sure *horns*
Right now, I'd like to get deeper into Sieges Even, who are also one of my fave groups. These guys rock like fh *horns*
I have four of their albums, incl. Paramount and Navigating, and there's enough here for several days of listening. I'm trying to understand their lyrics too (like any true proggie should always do). Quite different from DT's and Arena's lyrics.
Also, I want to get a proper run of Genesis again, i.a. due to your inspiration.
In between I listen to some songs by H-Marillion. They dont grip me like the abovementioned groups, but since I have some "kinda" friends who are M-freaks ;D I wanna share som'o'that too.
And when I need to get over my Autumn low, I put on Ten. They really raise my spirits *horns*
Tell me about your listening program :)
Apart from you and me, our fellow roomies are rather quiet currently, maybe because it's November, and maybe because of heavy birthday drinkin :D
You think the impossible has happened after all: That Bluey's fallen in love? ;D
Bupie will swear at me with all these *horns* ;D :D ;) :)
Fortunately he's busy playin Michelangelo ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-11-21, 18:55:12
Bupie will swear at me with all these *horns* ;D :D ;) :)
Fortunately he's busy playin Michelangelo ;D
Nicky.
Hey, I rarely visit this topic. I take a look and what do I see : Nicky finally recognizes me as an artist ;D
By the way, as promised, I played Ten
EC's Rockers CD twice while painting. Better than the first listen and I don't confuse those with ballads anymore ;). I would call it a mix between Asia, Shadow Gallery and Gary Moore. Very different from Def Leppard, I admit, but so far not better in my book. I didn't listen to the second CD because I needed something more familiar to go on working. So I played
Contagion by you-know-who. God, what an album !!! *horns*
And, ho, Nicky I really love the three DT songs you mentioned above.
That was my off-topic two cents ;D
Quote from: Bupie on Wed, 2007-11-21, 19:52:29
Nicky finally recognizes me as an artist ;D
;D Bupie. Keeps you from mistreatin the geese ;)
> I would call it a mix between Asia, Shadow Gallery and Gary Moore.
You must'v meant Arena instead of Asia, Bupie ;)
> So I played
Contagion by you-know-who. God, what an album !!! *horns*
Right on!
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-11-21, 18:55:12
Apart from you and me, our fellow roomies are rather quiet currently, maybe because it's November, and maybe because of heavy birthday drinkin :D
Nicky.
(Heavy) drinking - yes; birthday - no. ;D
Quote from: Bupie on Wed, 2007-11-21, 19:52:29
... Rockers ... and I don't confuse those with ballads anymore
This would be one of the first lessons in the French Flirting School ;D
Nicky.
...This is going nowhere...
:-X
Paco, you could give us some concrete examples to discuss.
I'll admit we've strayed a lot in this thread, but that's prob because the subject matter got out'o'hand ;)
I mean, the question of whether the different bands actually adhere to the traditions of our Western culture is an interesting one :)
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-11-27, 12:13:22I mean, the question of whether the different bands actually adhere to the traditions of our Western culture is an interesting one :)
Excuse me?
I fail to see this.
You're basicily saying: "Western culture = christian culture".
I have VERY big doubts about that.
It used to be so, but nowadays it's more a big mix where most of the morals (but not all by a long shot) are based upon christian believes.
I would rather say that Western Culture is largely influenced by Christianity.
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-11-27, 12:39:24
You're basically saying: "Western culture = Christian culture".
OK, I'll be more specific, Paco: Christianity is what keeps our civilisation sane and together, and the freedom, individuality, and creativity that's far more intrinsic to Christianity than any other religion is what makes us move faster ahead in this direction than any other civilisation on earth.
Why do you think that prog is limited to the Western civilisation? All other places in the world, people are basically playing the same music and telling the same stories as they did generations ago.
What causes degradation and violence in our societies is the
lack of Christian values.
So it's a constant struggle for what we regard as the
good. Isnt that what life is basically about? ;)
Nicky.
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Tue, 2007-11-27, 12:45:14I would rather say that Western Culture is largely influenced by Christianity.
I'd go even further and say that western culture is
based upon the fundament that is christianity.
But christianity is also present in Asia for example, so I won't say that Western culture is christian culture.
And today it's almost the other way round. Todays Western culture has got nothing to do with christianity anymore, more with Atheistic Humanism, while christianity takes a lot of influences from todays Western culture... Which gives major problems and a lot of schisms within christianity.
But strictly, christianity is an
Eastern religion. Just like Judaism and Islam.
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Tue, 2007-11-27, 12:59:58
Todays Western culture has got nothing to do with christianity anymore, more with Atheistic Humanism, while christianity takes a lot of influences from todays Western culture...
Paco, I would insist that Humanism is a consequence of Christianity. One of the things Christ says here and there is, that if you want to follow Me, you have to give up
everything that binds you to mass culture, even - I think mainly as a thought provocation - your father, mother and spouse, and learn to rely on your own judgment - of course inspired by the Light of Christ, i.a. the Bible, which is a history
and a compendium of human knowledge and wisdom.
Look at the world? Where do you find respect of the individual? - a vital principle of Humanism.
The atheists are also living by the Grace of God - only they dont acknowledge it !
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-11-27, 14:32:09Paco, I would insist that Humanism is a consequence of Christianity.
I also think Humanism is a consequence of Christianity, but Humanism is risen to a whole new level of having it's own religion (sort of).
I'm not saying Humanism is bad, but more elements were added to it (everybody is his own god, you have to look for the good things in yourself, and more of that kind of things), so what do we need Christ for?
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-11-27, 14:32:09One of the things Christ says here and there is, that if you want to follow Me, you have to give up everything that binds you to mass culture
Is this why you chose to listen to prog rather than pop music, Nicky? ;D ;)
If you want to follow Jesus, you have to give up
everything that leads you away from Gods will. Things that stand between you and God. If parents, friends or children (or ANYTHING!!) lead you away from the will of God, you have to give them up. Which doesn't mean you'll never see them anymore of course. Just that you don't participate when they do something against Gods will (like cursing, stealing, whatever). And to be honest I find this often very difficult.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-11-27, 14:32:09learn to rely on your own judgment - of course inspired by the Light of Christ, i.a. the Bible
Are you sure it's not the other way round, Nicky? Can we rely on our own judgment? I think we should rely on the Bible and judge everything through that. I think this is a fundamental difference.
"Rely on your own judgment" sounds a lot like being your own god... And this is nothing more or less than Humanism with a Christian flavour.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-11-27, 14:32:09the Bible, which is a history and a compendium of human knowledge and wisdom.
But above all: Gods Word! And I think the truth, that's why I am a Christian. ;D The Quran is also history and a compendium of human knowledge and wisdom, so are the books of Buddah, Confusius, Hindu etc etc... Very interesting books and very good to take inspiration from. But not the truth! ;)
Have you ever read the apocryphes, Nicky? And do you know why they are not accepted as canon in the Bible? I think they are very interesting and very inspirational, but not truth.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-11-27, 14:32:09Look at the world? Where do you find respect of the individual? - a vital principle of Humanism.
Which is indeed already half of Jesus' summarized commandment.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-11-27, 14:32:09The atheists are also living by the Grace of God - only they dont acknowledge it !
As long as you do good, you will make it... Yes, I've heard it all before. But I don't believe it.
Remember The Ministry Of Lost Souls, Nicky. ;)
Do we need Christ? Or can we do without?
-Paco
I'm finally back with my reading list for Nicky.
"The Modern Search for the Real Jesus" by Robert Strimple
This is a page of links to some articles:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/menus/historical.html
This is a more general article:
http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/historical_apologetics/habermas-nt.html
Probably the best piece to read. Read this first.
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ffbruce/ntdocrli/ntdocont.htm
That ought to keep you out of mischief for a while.
Cheers,
Keith
Great. Thanks, Keith.
I hope you didnt spend all of your time during the past three weeks digging up these sources :D
> That ought to keep you out of mischief for a while.
That I'm not so sure about ;D
Nicky.
No, I didn't spend all my time doing that. I was slow in posting the list, however.
I hope you find them helpful. It's certainly not an exhaustive list, but it's a start.
At the moment I'm reading a bit on this page.
Don't know what to think of it. But I think, as a Christian it is good to sharpen your thoughts.
http://www.av1611.org/crock.html
They say that rock, even christian rock, is blasphemy.
It's full of things to think about. But I don't really share his opinion mostly. Although, still I see and recognise a lot of things that he mentions there.
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Thu, 2008-01-03, 14:42:11
They say that rock, even christian rock, is blasphemy.
That's of course bull, Paco.
Those guys seem to have no awareness of the true spiritual prog: Arena, Dream Theater, Pallas, Sieges Even, Vanden Plas, Kamelot, Ten, 3, etc etc.
Although I feel very comfortable being a Lutheran Christian, I have to face that the entire Christian community is basically oblivious to the tremendous spiritually being explored by these groups.
Of course there have been and are anti-Christian rock groups like Slayer and Death, but I myself avoid them and dont regard them as representatives of my values.
Somehow most Christians seem to be very careful, often timid. Everything that's not nice and pleasant is classified as anti-Christian. And "nice and pleasant" I cant use about the sort of music that I dig.
If you played Witch Hunt on the local church hifi, you'd see all the aunties in wheelchairs get up and scramble away as if someone had shot'm in the ass - more efficient healing than the mumbo-jumbo Jesus-healers ;D
Instead these Christians get their aggressions out on all sorts of convoluted intrigues among each other :(
What to do about it ? Yeah, good question. Been thinkin lots bout it.
Nicky.
You have read the whole article in less than ten minutes?
Wow...
-Paco
Well, Paco, I saw names like Amy Grant, Sandi Patti, and Michael W. Smith, and I just thought: Forget it !
Nicky.
Quote from: PH on Thu, 2008-01-03, 14:42:11
http://www.av1611.org/crock.html
Oh dear, what a sad site. Could have been written by the guys I grew up with (Adventist church). "It all feels and looks so evil, so it must be evil".... For me, it all comes down to this:
I will not listen to music that contains lyrics or schemes that "play" with the concepts of my belief; that's not the way to look into the subject of god.
Example: I'm not overly sure how to deal with Iron Maiden, so I'm not listening to them. They create a demonic atmosphere I do not like. Period.
Example from the other side: Depeche Mode - "Blasphemous Rumours": great song. Not my opinion, but Martin Gore's (I believe) and acceptable as just that.
And bashing people like Amy Grant and others.... hey we're all sinners, right? Pointing at people and screaming: "hey, (s)he's evil, so don't deal with her/him"... we're not the ones to judge.
*shakes head*
Yeah, I also kind of react like that. But still... well... I want to be sure and take it from scripture instead of my own good or bad feelings.
But it has to be said, I don't take someones word for it, just because he uses scripture. I want to read it for myself.
Nothing wrong with a bit of mirror looking every now and then though.
And Nicky, the bands you mention there are of course not satanic. And personally I don't think it's bad to listen to them, but saying that they're spiritual.
I mean, when is someone spiritual?
We both agree they are gifted musicians, but does it mean that everything that comes from them is spiritual? That it is spiritual music?
;)
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Thu, 2008-01-03, 16:21:15
... does it mean that everything that comes from them is spiritual? That it is spiritual music?
YES !!!
As spiritual as Bach, Wagner, and Rachmaninoff !
Just because they dont have "I was saved by Jesus, yeah, yeah, yeah !" in all their songs, it doesnt make'm less spiritual and God-fearing than e.g. Bach.
Face it, world ! Our beloved prog musicians are intelligent, passionate, and seeking dudes, and such people experiment with new ways of expressing their devotion.
Nicky.
So what's Spock's Beard's Snow about?
I mean, I listened to it today (enjoyed it very much!), but I cannot get a grip on the story... The booklet and the extra written text doesn't help me that much either... Perhaps because English is not my native language...
Quote from: Nicky007 on Thu, 2008-01-03, 16:33:15Just because they dont have "I was saved by Jesus, yeah, yeah, yeah !" in all their songs, it doesnt make'm less spiritual and God-fearing than e.g. Bach.
Hahaha now you're making a big contrast! ;) "I was saved by Jesus, yeah, yeah, yeah!" is a bit too shallow, don't you think? Indeed, we won't find that in Prog. Not even in Neal Morse's solo albums. (Not in that way at least.) And also not in Bach's music.
I know that Bach was a christian. But how can someone who's not a christian be God-fearing?? God-fearing is deeply religious... Devoted to God.
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Sun, 2008-01-06, 20:42:51
So what's Spock's Beard's Snow about?
I mean, I listened to it today (enjoyed it very much!), but I cannot get a grip on the story... The booklet and the extra written text doesn't help me that much either... Perhaps because English is not my native language...
Roughly it's about a boy from the 'platte land' who has a divine gift and decides to go to the big city somewhere in the states to learn about himself and his gift.
And then all sorts of bad things occurs.
Quote from: maddox on Sun, 2008-01-06, 21:17:19Roughly it's about a boy from the 'platte land' who has a divine gift and decides to go to the big city somewhere in the states to learn about himself and his gift.
Ok, but what's behind the story?
I mean, this was of course written during Neal's conversion. I'm sure there's a meaning to it.
-Paco
Quote from: PH on Sun, 2008-01-06, 22:52:56
... Neal's conversion.
What sorta conversion was this, Paco ?
Nicky.
::)
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2008-01-07, 15:50:34
::)
I thought I was the one with ::) but now it's ::) ::)
Nicky.
Then i settle for a " ???".
;D
The "conversion" was Neal's embrace of Christianity -- at least something resembling Christianity. Some of his views are more than a bit unorthodox.