Ask Nicky - or just get an answer

[PH]

Yeah right...

[gelert]

.-- - ..-. ..--..   

[maddox]

.-- - ..-. ..--..   

[Nicky007]

So guys, just for the tension .....

[maddox]

Wow. On the threshold of becoming a sicko. 

How does that feel? 

You could always delete your account of course and start all over again. 

[Appelmoes??]

We're gonna party like it's 1999!

Well, Nicky is now

[maddox]

We're gonna party like it's 1999!

Well, Nicky is now

I wonder how long the party will last. 

[Appelmoes??]

I can hear him shouting Skäl from over here

[Deenfan]

Skäl?!!?

Swedish for "reason", I believe... Not something we are prepared to find in this thread!

[Deenfan]

Ok, I have found a question!

I have the sensation you are intrigued by lyrics on religious topics, Nicky. I haven't read up on all your discussions, so you'll have to forgive me for asking now:

What is it that makes such a topic so interesting?

And I also wanted to ask a question I cannot seem to find a good way of... wording...  but the key phrases would be "established religions" vs. "personal views or theories" and "praise/preach" vs. "doubt/attack"... What this boils down to, I guess is, "What kind of approach do you prefer?"

[Nicky007]

OK OK Deenie, BIG questions.

I'm already ...... can you hear it creaking ? 

I'l get back to you with proper answers to all your questions, but meanwhile you can find some interesting (at least I think so) threads here in the Room where mainly Paco, Keith, and I try out some thoughts on religion and mythology, particularly in relation to prog.

You still havent told me where in Norway you live, but maybe a guy like you has to be incognito ? 

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

Nice, Deenie. Gives me an opportunity to try out some thoughts together with you guys.


Let me start with a fabulous quote by one of my heroes:

"Religion is the loftiest object that can occupy human beings; it is the absolute object. It is the region of eternal truth and eternal virtue, the region where all the riddles of thought, all contradictions, and all the sorrows of the heart should show themselves to be resolved, and the region of the eternal peace through which the human being is truly human." - Hegel, 1827

Compact, but worth penetrating !

And in the words of Hee Kyung Kim, 2004:

"For Hegel, the 'content' and 'object' of philosophy and religion are same: 'the eternal truth, God and nothing but God'. Criticizing Kantian thought that our cognition [intellect] cannot grasp God, Hegel says that we can know not only 'that God is' but also 'what God is'. Theology, in Hegel's view, should investigate not merely 'our relation' to God but God's nature in God himself. But how can God be the object of our cognition? Can we really know God in essence? Yes, Hegel says, precisely because God is 'absolute Spirit' and spirit is only 'for spirit'.  Put differently, we human beings, who are spirit, cannot but immediately cognize absolute Spirit (God), who presents God-self to our consciousness. In his own words, 'God is revealed immediately in the consciousness of human beings.'"

"For Hegel, the history of religion is the history of spirit's self-realization, 'the becoming, the bringing forth of spirit by itself.'"

"For Hegel, Christ's death means that God became utterly other to God, taking upon the ultimate finitude. The resurrection of Christ means that God overcame the finitude and put to death the finitude of humanity. Christ's death and resurrection attests to God's infinite love, and restores the unity of God and humanity. We can comprehend the unity with God only spiritually. The church is the community that grasps this unity with the help of the outpouring of Spirit. The truth is at hand through revelation, and one needs to make this truth 'one's volition, one's object, one's spirit'. According to Hegel, human beings are 'born into the church' and they are 'destined to participate in this truth.'"

Powerful stuff, man ! - and tough, I'l admit. But Hegel comes closer to explaining the essence of Christianity than any other thinker I'v encountered. He's not afraid to use the necessary big words.


And now some of my own thoughts on religion:

I believe in complete freedom of thought, and freedom of speech (without unnecessary maligning) !  But it's also my experience that in our present human state, spiritual insight doesn't come by itself; we need some words of wisdom to ignite the thoughts in us, and we have to make an effort to get our intellect moving properly.

I find inspiration in several religions: Hindusim, or Vedic wisdom, is incredibly rich in analysis and ethics. A good place to start is Gandhi's autobiography. I find that he grasped some of the essential truths of Hinduism.

The problem with this mass of spirituality is that you risk losing yourself. That's why I'v taken Christianity to me. It gives me grounding. The cross is a very powerful symbol:  There's the vertical line from earth to heaven, but there's also the lateral post that keeps us safe in place. And the suffering Christ displays the stark contrast between the highest knowledge and the deepest passion - humanity in its extremes.

The only religion I don't find any inspiration in is Islam. To me it seems retrograde, pressing people back into an Old Testamental unfree state where everything is dictated to one.

And I'm scared by the rising jihadism all over the world. My analysis would be that a modern person cannot find sufficient consolation and inspiration in Islamic scripture and therefore slowly becomes desperate. Desperation leads to irrationality and sacrifice of individual critical thinking, and the results of that we can see in al-Qaeda & Co.

Of course we also know about Christian fanatics of various sorts, narrow-minded sheep who project their intellectual frustrations into their surroundings, but they're not nearly as dangerous as the jihadists.


So guys, this was (more than) a handfull. Let me hear your honest opinions about it, and any related thoughts.

Nicky.

[Deenfan]

Well, for one thing, your thoughts are much more sensible and relevant than this Hegel dude's. Or indeed King Kong Simzalabim wuzzisname's. They are based on one fundamental mistake: One thought/feeling/relation/definition to fit all people. It never works. No -ism can truly fit even a majority, if at all more than one person (the one defining it in the first place).

If, tomorrow, we all came to know that God exists, as an indisputable fact, there would be a possibility that he would talk to us all, laying down the line once and for all, and thereby establish a religious truth if you will, that would not be open for interpretation or discussion. Until that tomorrow comes, each can only define his own belief. Such as it is, God is many things. I believe he might be somewhere around 15 billion things. Out of the 6,5 billion people on the planet, God (in various depictions) carry some weight in the minds of at least 5 billion. To 1 billion of these, he is one thing, to 1 billion he is two things, to 2 billion he is between three and six things, and to 1 billion, he's more. So... around 15 billion...

I don't think a mere human could manage to say anything specific on what God is, that would tell the martians what God is to the earthlings.

I have often wanted to say to -ism'erizers that I find a lot of wisdom and inspiration in what they think and say, but could they please refrain from telling me what I think...?

One line that stuck with me from the book "Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand was "There is no such thing as a collective mind." (Or something to that effect). -The book promotes yet another -ism that contains a lot to consider, but hardly fits more than a handful of people. Why do they always want us all to fit inside a box? Ironically, even Individualism tries to do that, with a giant and wildly shaped box!!

- - - - - -

Let me comment on this quote here, then:

"Religion is the loftiest object that can occupy human beings; it is the absolute object. It is the region of eternal truth and eternal virtue, the region where all the riddles of thought, all contradictions, and all the sorrows of the heart should show themselves to be resolved, and the region of the eternal peace through which the human being is truly human."

Broken down:
Religion is the loftiest object that can occupy human beings - Ok, I can see the merit of that statement, but what if you're not religious at all? Isn't life on other planets, or time travel bound to be more lofty for you?

it is the absolute object - If you really care to know how and why we came to be here (and if there is a why at all, beyond the laws of chemistry), but if not...?

It is the region of eternal truth and eternal virtue - The trouble about this is that the eternal truth hasn't been found in religion yet. If it was, we wouldn't have religious dispute. I see the distinction between actually finding the truth and religion being the region of truth, but I know people who would say religion is the region of absolute, eternal deception and lies. The region of illusions and fantasy. Virtue is a hard thing to define, too.

the region where all the riddles of thought, all contradictions, and all the sorrows of the heart should show themselves to be resolved Are there no riddles of thought, no contradictions, and no sorrows of the heart that hasn't got a thing to do with religion? If (and I believe) there are, why would they be resolved by religion, short of by the actual appearance of God - with time to answer it all, for each and every one of us?

and the region of the eternal peace through which the human being is truly human.  I had to read this over several times, but I think I know what he's saying here. He's singled out a quality in humanity that is decisive of whether we're truly human or not, and that is the ability to live in peace? I don't think of humans as the race most able to live in peace, to be honest. (I might be way off here, but you'll set me straight in your next post if I am, so I'll thunder on... ) I would have liked to know what number the historic-global war-count would drop to if the region of religion didn't come into play.


- - - - - - -

It is obvious that religion is a lofty subject, but what is it's importance to a person who defines it like this:

"Religion is a lot of twaddle".

?

[Nicky007]

Thanks, Deenie. It's clear that you made an effort with writing your post. I appreciate that. Let's let it stand untouched for a while.

I can see that you also made an effort with the Hegel texts despite your grievances about such lofty stuff. I would repeat: Hegel is hard but good 

However, it would be interesting to hear what Paco and Keith think bout all this, and any other roomie who would care to share.

Nicky.

[Deenfan]

In the words of Deep Purple: "A hard man is good to find".

Cheers!

[Nicky007]

It is obvious that religion is a lofty subject, but what is its importance to a person who defines it like this: "Religion is a lot of twaddle". 

To me religion is the most important matter of all.

It's interesting to ponder on the roots of this word:  It's made up of "re" like in "re-do", and "ligion", meaning to bind, tie, connect, like in "ligament" and "league" (a roomie fave); so "re-ligion": to re-bind (what has been severed).

When I draw myself out of the wordly pulse and free myself (as much as I can) from wordly cares, my awareness tells me that there is something bigger than me (and above physics); let's just call it God.

I think it makes life more enjoyable to immerse myself in the sensual pleasures - food, beer, sex, prog etc - and I may be assimilating experiences for Life thereby, but I'm also aware that these pleasures are temporal; so I ask myself - naturally:  What's lasting ?

Nicky.

[Deenfan]

Passion

Passion of love

The memory of passion

The memory of love

Memory

[Nicky007]

Nice one, Deenie, very wistful 

Nicky.

[Deenfan]

Thanks. It was what hit me when I saw your question. If you look at it at a 90 degrees angle, it sort of depicts a mountain. I couldn't fit the word into the text, so I let the text make up the image.

[PH]

I'm sorry Nicky, but the language barrier makes it difficult for me to understand what's being said...

Perhaps you can give me some concrete questions?

-Paco

[Nicky007]

Paco, I don't think it's the language that thwarts you; it's the abstract thoughts that are expressed. I myself had to tackle the Hegel sentences several times before the content became clear to me. I also wrote that it was difficult stuff.

If you take it sentence by sentence and look up words that you're not fully familiar with, then you'l manage. In fact anyone with normal intelligence could understand it if they muster sufficient patience.

So I hope you find it interesting and you'd like to comment 

Nicky.

[PH]

Paco, I don't think it's the language that thwarts you; it's the abstract thoughts that are expressed. I myself had to tackle the Hegel sentences several times before the content became clear to me. I also wrote that it was difficult stuff.

If you take it sentence by sentence and look up words that you're not fully familiar with, then you'l manage. In fact anyone with normal intelligence could understand it if they muster sufficient patience.

So I hope you find it interesting and you'd like to comment 

Nicky.

Nicky, you were raised in the English speaking spheres.
Besides that (I hate to say it) you've got life experience. Perhaps more life than experience (to hide my envy).

I really would love to read all these stuff but at the moment I'm more the question-answer kinda guy.

-Paco

[Nicky007]

Nicky, you were raised in the English speaking spheres.

Paco, when I was your age, I had read several books about and by Kant, Schopenhauer, and Nietzsche, in German i.a. - Hegel came later. You're a seeking guy, so at some point you should make the dive into the vintage philosophical stuff.

The material I posted earlier can be understood without further aid - just perserverance 

OK, maybe one rare idiom:  cannot but - have no alternative but to, We cannot but choose otherwise. (Dictionary.com)

Nicky.

[Nicky007]

So this time it's "just get an answer":

I'd like to discuss "junk" with you guys - hey, not my junk or your junk (e.g. the piles of clothes, newspapers and cd's here and there), let's keep that for ourselves 

So what do we have ?

OK, there's junk food - everyone knows what that is.

Let's just go on:  junk music - yeah, of course, that's the stuff you get when you hit an ordinary radio channel.

Junk TV - OK, so how about Episode 345 of Family Jones' Dinners ?  Or the random soccer match, or car race - f*, I forgot my promise !

Junk sex - that's like going to a party, guzzlin, and next mornin you wake up in (a) bed with a "her" next to you, and you say "OK, so it's her", and it could have been pretty much any other pretty much woman at the party. (For women, this scenario might be different.)

OK, what else ?  - yeah, junk holidays - that's when you take the cheap offer in the newspaper, going to - hm, "hey Wilma, where was it ?" - and what was there ?  - yeah, some sandy beach, some, hm, junk food, junk music, .....

You get the picture !


And now to the pleasant (shoulder-clappin) part:  So what do proggies like ?

OK, demanding music, deeep lyrics, well-thought-out TV programs, holidays with nature experiences, museum visits, meeting persons etc., veggie - well, at least wholesome - food .....

So Keith does the metaphors, I do the provocations 

Expectin some reactions, guys ..... 

Nicky.

[PH]

So this time it's "just get an answer":

I'd like to discuss "junk" with you guys - hey, not my junk or your junk (e.g. the piles of clothes, newspapers and cd's here and there), let's keep that for ourselves 

So what do we have ?

OK, there's junk food - everyone knows what that is.

Let's just go on:  junk music - yeah, of course, that's the stuff you get when you hit an ordinary radio channel.

Junk TV - OK, so how about Episode 345 of Family Jones' Dinners ?  Or the random soccer match, or car race - f*, I forgot my promise !

Junk sex - that's like going to a party, guzzlin, and next mornin you wake up in (a) bed with a "her" next to you, and you say "OK, so it's her", and it could have been pretty much any other pretty much woman at the party. (For women, this scenario might be different.)

OK, what else ?  - yeah, junk holidays - that's when you take the cheap offer in the newspaper, going to - hm, "hey Wilma, where was it ?" - and what was there ?  - yeah, some sandy beach, some, hm, junk food, junk music, .....

You get the picture !


And now to the pleasant (shoulder-clappin) part:  So what do proggies like ?

OK, demanding music, deeep lyrics, well-thought-out TV programs, holidays with nature experiences, museum visits, meeting persons etc., veggie - well, at least wholesome - food .....

So Keith does the metaphors, I do the provocations 

Expectin some reactions, guys ..... 

Nicky.

Yup.