I'd like to make use of the expertise here in the Room to get a clearer picture of what we mean by prog.
Instead of trying to devise some complicated formula, let's do it the easy way: Select the groups that we can more or less agree upon as living up to the designation prog.
The rule is that if three or more roomies can agree on a group, then it's included.
Definitely prog
Angra
Arena
Ayreon
Circus Maximus
Credo
Dream Theater
Enchant
Fates Warning
Final Conflict
Fish
Flower Kings
Frameshift
Frost*
Genesis
Glass Hammer
Michael Harris
IQ
It Bites
Jadis
Kaipa
Kamelot
Kansas
King Crimson
Kino
Landmarq
Magenta
Magic Pie
Marillion (with Fish)
Marillion (with H)
Neal Morse
Mostly Autumn
Neo
Nolan And Wakeman
Opeth
Pain Of Salvation
Pallas
Pendragon
Pink Floyd
Porcupine Tree
Pure Reason Revolution
Queensrÿche
The Reasoning
Redemption
RPWL
Rush
Shadow Gallery
Shadowland (UK)
Sieges Even
Spock's Beard
Strangefish
Stride
Sun Caged
Sylvan
Symphony X
Thought Chamber
3
Threshold
Tool
Transatlantic
Steve Vai
Vanden Plas
The Watch
Winterstrain
Yes
Zero Hour
Candidates
Amaran's Plight 1
Anathema
Jon Anderson 1
Andromeda 2
Beyond Twilight
Blackfield
Blind Ego 2
Blind Guardian 1
Cairo 2
Camel 1
Chroma Key 1
Clepsydra 2
Coheed And Cambria 1
Conception 1
Cryptic Vision 1
Dark Tranquillity
Darwin's Radio 1
Deadsoul Tribe 2
Dreamscape
Dredg 1
Echolyn 2
Eloy 2
Emerson, Lake and Palmer 1
Everon 1
Peter Gabriel
Galeon 1
The Gathering 1
Gazpacho 1
Gentle Giant
David Gilmour 2
Karnataka
Katatonia 1
Knight Area 2
Led Zeppelin 1
Mars Volta
O.S.I. 1
Pagan's Mind 2
Paradise Lost
A Perfect Circle 1
Pilgrym 1
Robert Plant 1
Queens Of The Stone Age 1
Radiohead
Lou Reed
Royal Hunt 1
Saga 2
Savatage 1
Solar
Spiral Architect 1
Stiltskin
Supertramp
Steve Thorne
Ten 1
Tiles 1
Tomorrow's Eve 1
Twelfth Night 1
U.K. 2
The Urbane
Roger Waters 2
Rick Wright 1
Wuthering Heights
John Young 1
Frank Zappa 1
Not prog
Alice In Chains
Amorphis
Asia
Beatles
Chris Cornell
Faith No More
Korn
Motorhead
Muse
Pearl Jam
Queen
Soundgarden
Stranglers
Toto
U2
Nicky.
Mmm... I certainly agree that for example Dark Tranquility, Queensryche, Savatage or Rush do have 'prog moments', but I wouldn't consider them pure prog bands... Marillion definitely are... Frameshift too... as are RPWL... but Korn?! (If my brother listens to it, it CANNOT be prog! ;) ) And I thought Alice In Chains, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden were labelled 'grunge'...
Thanks for you opinion, Bluey.
Yeah, Marillion will probably end up on the list, but we have to decide whether both periods are prog.
I of course know that Alice In Chains are grunge - very much so I would say - but I personally would also designate them as prog; but I'd like to hear others' opinions.
It's a question of where we lay the limit of prog (which I consider a mark of excellence, even though we don't need to apply it outwardly, as Stuart wisely questioned).
A common mistake: Note that Dark Tranquillity is with two l's (especially you, Maddox ;D ).
I expect a lively debate on this thread.
Nicky
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 09:25:37
It's a question of where we lay the limit of prog
Keyboards! Prog needs keyboards. Simple as that. ;D
Certainly keyboards make a big difference, Bluey, but how about Zero Hour? They don't use keyboards at all, and I would fight to death to keep the prog label on them. Opeth have only rarely used keyboards (although now it looks like they want a permanent keyboard player), and O are very much prog imho.
Nicky.
I couldn't say I know Zero Hour well, so I prefer not to put them into any drawer, prog or not, but Opeth with all their grunts are pretty much death/black metal, aren't they?
Hey Nicky,
Did you notice that Fates Warning is on both lists ? Does it mean something special ? ;D
About the first list : I know I'm going to shock many people here but from what I know from Threshold, it's just hard rock with keyboards, not prog.
About the second list :
Asia is not prog even if it includes a ton of prog musicians.
Kansas and Marillion are IMHO obviously prog. Leftoverture and Misplaced Childhood would be in my top 10 of better prog albums of all times.
Glass Hammer is prog. Some Shadowland songs are prog (Jigsaw, for instance).
I don't see any prog in the It Bites albums that I own. I don't see any prog in Led Zeppelin or Muse neither, for instance, and very few in Toto.
Speaking of limits, Shadow Gallery is a good example of a band on the edge : some (good) mainstream tunes and some long prog epics.
My two cents but, to be honest, I am not found of classifications ... :(
Quote from: Bupie on Fri, 2007-09-07, 10:14:41
My two cents, but, to be honest, I am not found of classifications ... :(
Well, you did a good job nonetheless, Bupie. Thanks for your three cents.
In all humility (and I remain your most humble servant), I think that this is one of the more relevant classification exercises.
Yeah, Fates Warning are of course prog (anyone disagree = beating).
Nicky.
Quote from: bluepony on Fri, 2007-09-07, 10:13:10
... but Opeth with all their grunts are pretty much death/black metal, aren't they?
OK, I'll leave that open to discussion, Bluey.
Nicky.
I think we also need to discuss Britney Spears - what does she do on that list?! ???
Quote from: Bupie on Fri, 2007-09-07, 10:14:41
I know I'm going to shock many people here (...)
Well, I'm not shocked. ;)
Quote from: Bupie on Fri, 2007-09-07, 10:14:41
(...) from what I know from Threshold, it's just hard rock with keyboards, not prog.
That doesn't make them less great, though! :)
Quote from: bluepony on Fri, 2007-09-07, 10:34:03
That doesn't make them less great, though! :)
That was the point of my final remark to Nicky : what matters is the emotion that the music brings, whatever the style. But it doesn't prevent us from discussing about the proginness (???) of bands, of course. ;)
I agree with your first list Nicky. Those are indeed prog bands.
From the second list I think these are prog:
Deadsoul Tribe
Emerson, Lake and Palmer
Fish
Frameshift
Glass Hammer
It Bites
Kansas
Marillion (with Fish)
Marillion (with H)
Nolan and Wakeman
O.S.I.
Pure Reason Revolution
Queensrÿche
RPWL
Rush
Shadow Gallery
Shadowland
Twelfth Night
Frank Zappa
The rest is in my opinion not prog, or I don't know them good enough to tell.
Thanks, guys. I think we can now safely put Marillion (with Fish), Marillion (with H), Fish, Frameshift, Kansas, and RPWL on the prog list.
I'd also personally like Threshold on the prog list, particularly considering their old, lighter stuff.
So, how about Opeth? Are they a prog group?
Nicky.
Quote from: bluepony on Fri, 2007-09-07, 10:26:05
I think we also need to discuss Britney Spears - what does she do on that list?! ???
That's an old tradition, Bluey - look back ;D
Nicky.
Just to put a bleeding great big spanner in the works here......There are bands who show massive progression from album to album (One of the definitions of prog) who clearly are not what we call prog. So really we need to be saying we have these categories......
Prog (What we would call prog including Neo prog and all that)
Prog related (Bands that have prog influence but are not prog as we know it)
Prog within genre (Bands that progress over time but are of a different genre)
And of course there's that other thing, Opinion, we've all got one and they all vary somewhat. Marillion(Fish ere) they would be one of the first on my list of 'Proper Prog Bands' That would be my opinion. H era not so sure.
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 11:41:54
Just to put a bleeding great big spanner in the works here
OK with me, John. I'm a bit like that too ;)
> There are bands who show massive progression from album to album (One of the definitions of prog) who clearly are not what we call prog.
Like?
> So really we need to be saying we have these categories:
> Prog (What we would call prog including Neo prog and all that)
> Prog related (Bands that have prog influence but are not prog as we know it)
> Prog within genre (Bands that progress over time but are of a different genre)
Let's stick to the first category for a while.
> And of course there's that other thing, Opinion, we've all got one and they all vary somewhat. Marillion (Fish era), they would be one of the first on my list of 'Proper Prog Bands' That would be my opinion. H era not so sure.
That's why this is an experiment, John. I'd like to see if we can reach something like an agreement on what prog is. I think we've already made some interesting progression in that direction.
If not, well, I guess I'll be hanging next to Paco (at least I'll have good company) ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 11:31:21I'd also personally like Threshold on the prog list, particularly considering their old, lighter stuff.
Put them on the list!
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 11:31:21So, how about Opeth? Are they a prog group?
Yup, they are as progressive as can be.
But the question is, do you like it.
I only like Damnation from start to finish, and the rest is to Death Metal for me (the growls you know... I try to like it, but...)
The problem often is that you like prog, and then you want every band you like to be prog... or something...
And every band that is prog, you want to like, but that's not always the case.
So in the end I end up liking bands that aren't prog and disliking bands that are absolutely prog.
But that has been said before so I'll shut up now.
Quote from: PH on Fri, 2007-09-07, 12:06:31
Yup, they [Opeth] are as progressive as can be.
We need at least one more vote.
> But the question is, do you like it. I only like Damnation from start to finish, and the rest is too Death Metal for me (the growls you know... I try to like it, but...)
It's taken me a long time, Paco, but yes, now I also like the parts with Mikael growling, although I prob would like them even better with clean aggressive singing, maybe the way Alan Reed sings "Why was I sent here? God only knows! Now I'm wandering in a desert of desperate souls".
Nicky.
OK, guys, let's hear some more opinions: Should The Reasoning and Final Conflict be on our prog list?
I don't know them, so I can't contribute.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 11:53:17
> There are bands who show massive progression from album to album (One of the definitions of prog) who clearly are not what we call prog.
Like?
How about... Amorphis? And of course Anathema! (before I mix 'em up again I think I'll just name both ;D )
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 12:27:14
OK, guys, let's hear some more opinions: Should The Reasoning and Final Conflict be on our prog list?
I don't know them, so I can't contribute.
Nicky.
For The Reasoning, if you consider Magenta or Mostly Autumn prog (I do), definitively yes ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVlJ91ZDlYc
I'll make it a third for Opeth
Quote from: Nicky007> There are bands who show massive progression from album to album (One of the definitions of prog) who clearly are not what we call prog.
Like?
The Stranglers, always concidered to be a punk band (Certainly the first 2 albums) but then they went and did some very very different material, while still sounding like themselves.
!st album - Rattus Norvegicus - Out and out Punk Rock? Probably, but the final track at 7:53......bit long for your usual punk tune
2nd album - No More Heroes - Follows on nicely, pretty much more of the same, again final track 7:05 Punk Rock Epics
3rd album - Black & White - Starts off pretty much as a follow on from the last, but then it goes and gets DARK and lots more Synth sounds.
4th album - The Raven - Somewhat lighter than the previous, loads more Keys, more melody but still so obviously The Stranglers
5th album - The Gospel According to The Meninblack - First track the wonderfull Waltzinblack, anyone familier with the Kieth Floyd Cooking Programs will know this, and yes it is a waltz. Very strange album this, a concept album to start with and probably their darkest album dealing with Extra Terrestrial Takeover.
I could go on but enough said. They are one of these bands who you can tell straight away from the sound who it is yet are able to take that sound to so many levels.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 12:27:14
OK, guys, let's hear some more opinions: Should The Reasoning and Final Conflict be on our prog list?
I don't know them, so I can't contribute.
Nicky.
Too bloody right, DO IT NOW!
Now Opeth and The Reasoning have been included in the prog list.
So, how about Final Conflict, Magenta, Mostly Autumn, Glass Hammer, Rush, Shadow Gallery, Shadowland, Anathema, and Amorphis?
Nicky.
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 15:32:24
The Stranglers ....
Thanks for your interesting contribution, John.
You think that there's anything by Stranglers that I or any other roomie would go for?
Nicky.
Let's participate in the discussion. ;)
Candidates
Amorphis = I have no idea. Never heard anything of them.
Anathema = Used to be absolutely no prog but that's well known in music land. Nowadays they have some elements that could be described as prog but i don't think it is a genuine prog band. Not by a mile. ;)
Alice In Chains = Interesting. Same as Anathema actually though first reaction that springs to mind is 'grunge'. Overall: no.
Jon Anderson = Being the singer of Yes i'm inclined to say yes but what he has done with Vangelis and solo is ehm...not really prog. I'd say the same category as Asia.
Andromeda = Definitely yes. Anyone who's never heard of them, be ashamed. They're great. Period. :D
Beatles = hmm, i'm a fan so i should say yes. Saying the Beatles were essential for the next music generation is true because they were. But prog? In the end i'd say no.
Chris Cornell - One of the best rock singers around but .. no.
Coheed And Cambria - Yes in my opinion.
Dark Tranquillity - I really wouldn't know. Have to check them out first.
Deadsoul Tribe - I'd say yes.
Dreamscape - Unknown to me.
Emerson, Lake and Palmer - hmm a bit fushionish prog i'd say.
Final Conflict - heard the tracks on their MySpace site (thank you, John ;)) and it's prog in my view. Sounds a bit between It Bites and a touch of Asia but i like it.
Glass Hammer - Definitely yes. 1
It Bites - If it is then it's prog-lite, but no. Sorry.
Korn - Won't answer this one. ;D
Led Zeppelin - This one neither. :D
Magenta - Yes they are prog.
Mars Volta - Psychedelic? Yes. Prog? ehm...no. Weird? Definitely yes. :D
Mostly Autumn - Yes.
Muse - Everyone tells me about how good it is but it doesn't shake my spine. So no.
Nolan and Wakeman - Do you really need to ask? Of course it is! :D
O.S.I. - Difficult one. I'd say yes because of the Fates Warning influences but it has the tendency to sound like Kevin Moore's own projects. A gentle yes for me.
Pagan's Mind - Have no idea. Never heard of them.
Pearl Jam - Grunge anyone? ::)
Robert Plant - ehm...nope.
Pure Reason Revolution - yes although i recategorize them as neo-prog.
Queen - Sorry but no.
Queensrÿche - Proggish elements but more lifting over to the rock/metal side.
Queens Of The Stone Age - ::)
Rush - Yes. One of the builders of prog.
Savatage - Metal yes with some proggish influences. Am in doubt with this one.
Shadow Gallery - Definitely yes.
Shadowland - A yes again.
Skyfire - unkown
Soundgarden - Nope. You could have guessed. ;)
Britney Spears - ehmmm.... :P
Spiral Architect - Unknown
3 - Yes they are. Great band by the way. Which reminds me to order their album. :-[
Toto - Great rock band but no. No prog.
Twelfth Night - Familiar name but not their music. No idea.
U2 - One of the best rock bands around but definitely no prog to me.
Wuthering Heights - Unknown
Frank Zappa - Are you serious? ???
Not prog
Asia - no indeed. no prog.
But with all this it brings up a new question: What is prog?
There are a lot of variations in the prog genre. We've got Neo-prog, symphonic rock, progressive rock, progressive metal. So that's why with my post i list all of the bands as prog. whatever genre it really is.
Clear?
:D
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 15:32:24
The Stranglers
At first i laughed a bit on this one but it has indeed some elements of prog inside it.
Having said that i'd say no. Sorry John. ;)
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-09-07, 16:42:48
At first i laughed a bit on this one but it has indeed some elements of prog inside it.
Having said that i'd say no. Sorry John. ;)
You got the wrong end of the stick mate. No way would I suggest they are Prog, but they are Progressive within their genre.
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 16:46:44
You got the wrong end of the stick mate. No way would I suggest they are Prog, but they are Progressive within their genre.
I know. That's why i answered with 'prog elements'. But i always thought that prog. is the abbreviation of 'progressive'. :-\
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-09-07, 16:49:14
I know. That's why i answered with 'prog elements'. But i always thought that prog. is the abbreviation of 'progressive'. :-\
Indeed it is, but there are so many different styles it's very difficult to know exactly when a band begins/stops being Prog. It seems to me there are many progressive bands around that are not what we would call Prog. And probably a few that are not that we do class as Prog, often subject only to our individual opinions.
Oh dear... this could go on for hours and hours! ;)
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 16:55:46
Indeed it is, but there are so many different styles it's very difficult to know exactly when a band begins/stops being Prog. It seems to me there are many progressive bands around that are not what we would call Prog. And probably a few that are not that we do class as Prog, often subject only to our individual opinions.
Agree. That's why i said this:
Quote from: meBut with all this it brings up a new question: What is prog?
There are a lot of variations in the prog genre. We've got Neo-prog, symphonic rock, progressive rock, progressive metal. So that's why with my post i list all of the bands as prog. whatever genre it really is.
Quote from: bluepony on Fri, 2007-09-07, 16:57:15
Oh dear... this could go on for hours and hours! ;)
Which is the best way to raise my post count. ;D
Edit: 2100!!! *horns* ;)
There obviously is a reason why some people here are ranked as Sickos! ;D
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-09-07, 16:58:22
Which is the best way to raise my post count. ;D
Edit: 2100!!! *horns* ;)
Round and round in circles all day, raising post counts, just by changing the arguement slightly each time. Still they are all interesting ideas.
You guys should have written for Scream! magazine - we would have been very happy to have such experts! :)
(Sadly it's no longer possible since the Scream! "died" this year... *sob*)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 16:14:58
Thanks for your interesting contribution, John.
You think that there's anything by Stranglers that I or any other roomie would go for?
Nicky.
Probably the best introduction would be to start with Suite XVI, the latest album. After all I've said about them this is probably a bit of a regression BUT after the first 10 albums they lost their Singer/Guitarist, he was replaced by two people. For me and many others the Stranglers always worked best as a 4 piece, on the latest they are back to 4, for some reason with them it works so much better.
Maddox, thanx a lot for your contribution. You simply took the candidates one by one. Fine comments too.
So, it looks like we can include the following groups in the prog list now:
Final Conflict (very much so), Shadow Gallery, Rush, Shadowland, Magenta, Glass Hammer, Mostly Autumn, Nolan And Wakeman, Pure Reason Revolution.
The following groups we seem to agree are not prog:
Queen, U2, Muse, Toto, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden.
Any objections?
And now we seem to need some more opinions on the following candidates:
Andromeda, Coheed And Cambria, Anathema, Amorphis, Queensrÿche, O.S.I., Mars Volta.
Nobody else but me wants to label Alice In Chains as a prog group?
Nicky.
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-09-07, 16:40:21
Frank Zappa - Are you serious? ???
Well, Paco included Zappa in his prog list.
Nicky.
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 15:32:24
4th album - The Raven - Somewhat lighter than the previous, loads more Keys, more melody but still so obviously The Stranglers
Duch of the Terrace never grew up
I hope she never will ...
You put this song back in my head, John. it's been a very long time ;)
Quote from: Bupie on Fri, 2007-09-07, 17:48:12
Duch of the Terrace never grew up
I hope she never will ...
You put this song back in my head, John. it's been a very long time ;)
Played that earlier, fab song.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 17:47:04
Well, Paco included Zappa in his prog list.
Nicky.
Is he serious? ???
;)
You're not giving up on the Alice in Chains and Chris Cornell matter are you Nicky? :D
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-09-07, 17:52:08
Is he serious? ???
;)
And I thought Zappa was his own genre!
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 18:04:03
And I thought Zappa was his own genre!
Maybe we should include Lou Reed too. :D
Now i'm only joking. ;D
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-09-07, 18:04:53
Maybe we should include Lou Reed too. :D
Now i'm only joking. ;D
Motorhead?
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 18:07:06
Motorhead?
Now i agree with blue: This can go on for hours and hours! :D
Maybe it's time for two new candidates if i may.
What about:
Kaipa and Knights Area?
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-09-07, 20:20:55
Maybe it's time for two new candidates if i may.
What about:
Kaipa and Knights Area?
Second both them, and if I may 2 more.....
Credo and Darwin's Radio
I could maybe toss a few more into the mix......
Angra
Blind Guardian
Cairo
Chroma Key
Clepsydra
Echolyn
Eloy
Jadis
King Crimson
Magic Pie
Pagan's Mind
Pilgrym
Porcupine Tree
Queensryche
Royal Hunt
U.K.
If i've mentioned something already said then thats a 2nd or 3rd vote.
Agree with Credo. Great band. Darwin's radio is unknown to me.
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 21:02:30
I could maybe toss a few more into the mix......
Angra
Blind Guardian
Cairo
Chroma Key
Clepsydra
Echolyn
Eloy
Jadis
King Crimson
Magic Pie
Pagan's Mind
Pilgrym
Porcupine Tree
Queensryche
Royal Hunt
U.K.
If i've mentioned something already said then thats a 2nd or 3rd vote.
I second the highlighted ones. Great that you know Cairo as well, John. ;)
A few more:
Strangefish,
Galeon,
Tomorrow's Eve,
The Gathering (if Nicky can mention Alice In Chains, i can mention The Gathering ;)),
The Watch,
Enchant,
Tiles?
Hey this actually sounds a bit like my listening profile. :D
Strangefish and The Watch deffo a second vote. Enchant, Black Eyes & Broken Glass probably my favorite track, yep, gets a vote from me
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 17:33:44
Nobody else but me wants to label Alice In Chains as a prog group?
Nope! ;D
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-09-07, 17:55:15
You're not giving up on the Alice in Chains and Chris Cornell matter are you Nicky? :D
Not that easily. But I can see the way the wind is blowing.
Nicky.
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-09-07, 20:20:55
Maybe it's time for two new candidates if i may.
What about:
Kaipa and Knights Area?
Certainly, Maddox. All such proposals are very welcome. And I take it that you vote for these two too.
Nicky.
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 21:02:30
I could maybe toss a few more into the mix......
Hey, you're really well versed in prog, John.
Got'm all included. Let's see what other roomies think.
Nicky.
Quote from: johninblack on Fri, 2007-09-07, 22:01:07
Strangefish and The Watch deffo a second vote. Enchant, Black Eyes & Broken Glass probably my favorite track, yep, gets a vote from me
Got your first two votes registered, John. Do you mean the group Enchant? And what are the last two, groups or songs?
Nicky.
So, guys, got all your votes registered. You can see the status in the original post. The numbers after the groups under "Candidates" are the number of votes they've received presently.
If I've missed something, please notify.
Please continue to vote, but don't vote a second time for the same group, as that'll confuse me, and you don't want that, do you?
You're also welcome to question any of the groups under "Definitely prog".
Lots of names I've never heard before. That in itself is interesting.
I guess AIC had to sink.
But now the three big questions: Are It Bites, Chris Cornell, and Beatles prog?
Nicky.
Hey Nicky! Have you got Camel? I didnt see it or maybe i just missed it?
Clepsydra: YES!
Porcupine Tree: SURE!
Kaipa: OF COURSE!
Strangefish: YEAH!
The Watch: SURE!
Maddox said it before and I say it again.
There's so much different prog. And the prog standard is different from each perspective it seems.
There's "progressive rock" and "progressive" rock.
The first one "progressive rock", it is the substantive itself, is music that strictly follows the guidelines of the 70s prog. Neal Morse for example. It can be called Retro prog if you want, or as some say it jokingly "regressive rock".
If you consider this the only guideline, than Arena is prog, but Jadis isn't.
Than there's "progressive" rock, "progressive" is the adjective for the "rock" that is the substantive. Frost for example. Or Darwin's Radio, Porcupine Tree (although the latter takes it's influences from the 60s 70s psychecelica).
I like both sorts of prog, so to me it's all just a matter of taste.
And some are truly best of both worlds, like Arena, which takes "Progressive Rock" and "Progressive" Rock.
OK, Paco, got your latest votes registered.
You seem to have missed Neal Morse.
Thanks for your interesting comments too.
So, anyone wanna promote Andromeda, Angra, Clepsydra, Deadsoul Tribe, Echolyn, Enchant, Knights Area, Pagan's Mind, Sylvan, U.K., and/or Frank Zappa to prog?
Nicky.
I do wonder where Sylvan is? Certainly they are considered prog, aren't they? ???
Quote from: maddox on Sat, 2007-09-08, 16:31:52
I do wonder where Sylvan is? Certainly they are considered prog, aren't they? ???
Yes, of course. I guess we simply forgot them. I put them on the candidate list with your and my vote, Maddox.
You mentioned Everon in the NP thread, so I added them too. But it wasn't clear to me whether you considered them prog or not.
And how about Beyond Twilight, Blackfield, Dredg, Faith No More, Katatonia, and A Perfect Circle?
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sat, 2007-09-08, 16:55:07
Yes, of course. I guess we simply forgot them. I put them on the candidate list with your and my vote, Maddox.
You mentioned Everon in the NP thread, so I added them too. But it wasn't clear to me whether you considered them prog or not.
And how about Beyond Twilight, Blackfield, Dredg, Faith No More, Katatonia, and A Perfect Circle?
Nicky.
Well i did say that Everon is an underestimated
progband. ;)
Blackfield - Despite of the presence of wonderchild Wilson i'm inclined to say no.
Beyond Twilight - Great. Another band i don't know. :-\
Dredg - And another. :-\ Though i do know a Judge Dredd. ;D
Faith No More - Well they did a song called 'Epic'. But...nope. No prog. :D
Katatonia - Heard of them before but have no idea how they sound like. So much to learn. :D
A Perfect Circle - Same category as Tool i guess because of the fact that Tools' singer is in it. Personally i wonder why some of you it's prog. I consider it Metal with proggish elements but no prog by definition.
The end for now. ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sat, 2007-09-08, 12:39:02
Got your first two votes registered, John. Do you mean the group Enchant? And what are the last two, groups or songs?
Nicky.
Black Eyes & Broken Glass is a song from Enchants rather excellent album 'Juggling 9 or Dropping 10'. Sorry confusing you guys again....It's a vote for Enchant whatever the confusion ;)
Hey, guys, now you're being evasive. I want your comments as to whether the following groups and artists are prog or not:
It Bites
Beatles
Chris Cornell (soloproduction)
David Gilmour -"-
Roger Waters -"-
Rick Wright -"-
Nicky.
Quote from: maddox on Sat, 2007-09-08, 18:50:22
A Perfect Circle - Same category as Tool i guess because of the fact that Tools' singer is in it. Personally i wonder why some of you [think] it's prog. I consider it Metal with proggish elements but no prog by definition.
Try eMOTIVE. That's prog as good as it gits. Fabulous album. Aint that right, John?
Quote from: maddox on Sat, 2007-09-08, 18:50:22
The end for now. ;)
The duck ass?
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-09-09, 10:39:52
Hey, guys, now you're being evasive. I want your comments as to whether the following groups and artists are prog or not:
It Bites
Beatles
Chris Cornell (soloproduction)
David Gilmore -"-
Roger Waters -"-
Rick Wright -"-
Nicky.
OK, you wanted an answer......here goes
It Bites - Yep Prog, having said that with a very 'pop' influence
Beatles - SoooooooooNOT Prog, But certainly a MAJOR influence on music as a whole for so many acts. The Instigators of prog? Yeah, maybe along with a few others.
Chris Connel - Only got one album but on the evidence of that, no.
The Pink Floyd Dudes - As a whole, of course, but as individuals the waters are muddied somewhat! I would be inclined to say that their work as a collective is far too Prog for their solo material not to be, but you could equally argue that none of them are Prog as solo acts. Gilmour solo, Prog but could easily be described as being AOR or even Soft Rock. The other two I own nothing from so i'm going only by memeory, and i've had quite a few sessions on the Ale since then but heard enough to say Yes you could call them Prog, but as with Gilmour other 'Tags' could fit.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-09-09, 10:58:40
Try eMOTIVE. That's prog as good as it gits. Fabulous album. Aint that right, John?
New one on me Nicky, I'll have to check them out.
See, I don't know everything.........quite.
Quote from: johninblack on Sun, 2007-09-09, 12:58:03
OK, you wanted an answer......here goes
Thanks, John, I think you filled out some missing pieces for me.
I would conclude now:
It Bites is prog. I mean, it has to be, with the great John Mitchell at the helm, although they do tend toward the poppy, as you say.
Chris Cornell is not prog. My pet project, I'll admit, but I understand you guys' qualms about putting him on the prog shelf.
Beatles is not prog, although you and I can agree that their influence on rock music has been monumental.
Any objections to this?
I need some more comments on the Floyd guys, however, to reach a conclusion.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-09-09, 14:20:21
Thanks, John, I think you filled out some missing pieces for me.
I would conclude now:
It Bites is prog. I mean, it has to be, with the great John Mitchell at the helm, although they do tend toward the poppy, as you say.
Chris Cornell is not prog. My pet project, I'll admit, but I understand you guys' qualms about putting him on the prog shelf.
Beatles is not prog, although you and I can agree that their influence on rock music has been monumental.
Any objections to this?
Sounds right to me *horns*
I only heard Gilmour's solo material and although I REALLY like it, I think it's no prog.
As for the others, I don't know, but I've heard that they aren't really prog either.
Pink Floyd is prog. Period.
David Gilmour however is not. Not by a mile. Neither is Richard Wright, though very enjoyable.
I do consider Roger Water as prog though. *horns*
Guys, I have qualms about relegating my old idols, Dave, Roger and Rick, to the darkness of non-prog. So I suggest we give all their soloalbums a spin or two, and then decide on a more qualified basis. How's that?
Meanwhile, can't we agree that Neal Morse and Sylvan are prog?
And how about Kamelot?
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2007-09-09, 18:15:07
Meanwhile, can't we agree that Neal Morse and Sylvan are prog?
:o They still aren't? :o
Somebody has been sleeping. :-\
My vote for Sylvan and Neal Morse. *horns* :D
QuoteAnd how about Kamelot?
Nicky.
Good one. Bombastic: Yes. Symphonic elements: Yes. Progressive elements: Yes. Prog?: I'd say yes. :-\
I'ts metal but not as we know it. Does that count? ;D
Kamelot, Sylvan and Neal Morse. YES *horns*
Kamelot, Sylvan and Neal Morse. YES *horns*
OK, these were three clear votes for Neal Morse, Sylvan and Kamelot. They are now on our prog list.
So, take a look at the candidate list and consider whether you should cast a vote, and maybe even flash on a group that's missing.
Nicky.
So how do you folks feel about these....
Shadowland
Supertramp
Karnataka
Knight Area
Landmarq
Neo
Steve Thorne
Twelth Night
Prog or not?
Quote from: johninblack on Sun, 2007-09-09, 23:09:11
So how do you folks feel about these....
Shadowland
Supertramp
Karnataka
Knight Area
Landmarq
Neo
Steve Thorne
Twelth Night
Prog or not?
The bold ones are prog in my opinion. The rest I either don't know or don't consider prog.
-Lientje
Neo has Clive in it so it's prog and shouldn't need any more votes, I mean it can't not be prog, it's members are all in bands in the PROG category and they only play songs from the bands the members of Neo usually play with, i.e. Arena, IQ, Pendragon, Pallas.......need I go on?
Quote from: johninblack on Sun, 2007-09-09, 23:09:11
So how do you folks feel about these....
Shadowland
Supertramp
Karnataka
Knight Area
Landmarq
Neo
Steve Thorne
Twelth Night
Prog or not?
Definitely prog! (the ones marked bold)
And actually I think Steve Thorne and Twelfth Night are prog too.
I wasn't sure about it at first, because I don't know Twelfth Night that good, and I think Steve Thorne is somewhat on the singer/songwriter side, but he has very clever songwriting skills.
Some songs are undoubtly prog.
Quote from: maddox on Sun, 2007-09-09, 16:27:36
Pink Floyd is prog. Period.
Just in case anyone was unsure about that ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-09-10, 16:25:53
Just in case anyone was unsure about that ;D
Good you got that clarified. I though PF was "weed-smokers" music! ;)
I thought we'd be the smokers, Bluey.
Nicky.
Well it was progressive weed anyway.
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-09-10, 17:32:34
Well it was progressive weed anyway.
So you wanna start a new topic here, Pac-O: Which weed is prog?
Nicky.
Well, the giant hogweed of course! What else?
Quote from: maddox on Sun, 2007-09-09, 18:35:35
Somebody has been sleeping. :-\
The sleeping beauty! Is that Bluey?
Nicky.
Thanks for your votes and flashes, guys.
So, now Neo and Shadowland have been promoted to the prog list. Any objections? (I shouldn't think so with these groups.)
Karnataka, Landmarq, Supertramp, and Steve Thorne have been included in the candidate list with their respective votes.
Can't we agree that 3 and Twelfth Night are prog? (Need two votes for each.)
Nicky.
3 is prog!
I'm not quite sure about Neo... Because Neo isn't really a band, you see? :-\
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-09-10, 19:12:40
I'm not quite sure about Neo... Because Neo isn't really a band, you see? :-\
Tell me, Pac-O, what is Neo? I don't know anything about them.
Here's John's version, and that's why I put them on the prog list:
Quote from: johninblack on Sun, 2007-09-09, 23:17:31
Neo has Clive in it so it's prog and shouldn't need any more votes, I mean it can't not be prog, it's members are all in bands in the PROG category and they only play songs from the bands the members of Neo usually play with, i.e. Arena, IQ, Pendragon, Pallas.......need I go on?
> 3 is prog!
OK, two votes for 3 now. (Not two for tea.)
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-09-10, 19:30:07
Tell me, Pac-O, what is Neo?
The one. ;)
There is no spoon. :D
So maybe I'll start practising my Japanese here ;D
Nicky.
Neo is a formation in which John Jowitt, Clive Nolan, Nick Barrett, Alan Reed, Mark Westwood, Andy Edwards and others work together and play songs from Arena, Pendragon, Pallas and IQ in the United States, because these bands normally don't go there.
It's NOT a band, it's a bunch of guys who play songs. There's NO official album, just one live DVD. And there are no studio albums.
So it would seem to me the right thing to list Neo on our prog list, isn't it?
Nicky.
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-09-10, 20:52:51
It's NOT a band, it's a bunch of guys who play songs.
Of course they are a band. Clive states on the DVD 'We are a cover band, we just cover our own songs' See he uses the word 'BAND' :P
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-09-10, 17:13:54
I thought we'd be the smokers, Bluey.
Of course I don't know about you, but I don't smoke... but I heard you can make cookies from it, too! ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-09-10, 18:41:04
The sleeping beauty! Is that Bluey?
Sleeping - yes (whenever I can!).
Beauty? Up to others to decide! ;D ;)
Quote from: PH on Mon, 2007-09-10, 19:12:40
I'm not quite sure about Neo... Because Neo isn't really a band, you see? :-\
So does it have to be a band to be prog? ???
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-11, 08:52:41
Beauty? Up to others to decide! ;D ;)
It's high time that we bought a train ticket for Tom from Marsh City to "somewhere in Germany".
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-11, 08:52:41
Sleeping - yes (whenever I can!).
Particularly while bossie's away. That's why he gets these opulent lunches ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-11, 08:51:59
Of course I don't know about you, but I don't smoke
I actually stopped smoking everything a year ago, weed and that sorta stuff some 25 years ago.
Now I only smoke over some of your statements, Bluey ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-11, 09:23:37
Now I only smoke over some of your statements, Bluey ;D
Doin' my best to keep you busy! ;D ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-11, 09:17:45
It's high time that we bought a train ticket for Tom from Marsh City to "somewhere in Germany".
Ah, I was already wondering when you would pick up that subject again! ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-11, 09:17:45
Particularly while bossie's away. That's why he gets these opulent lunches ;D
He's in Spain right now so I guess he will get even more delicious food than anything our canteen could come up with. (I envy him! I LOVE Mediterranean food and I lived in Spain for a while... great country... I'm missing it!)
How about Blind Ego - are they prog?
Nicky.
I think Blind Ego are probably prog especially seeing who is in the band and having listened to the album alot now!
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-11, 09:42:59
... I lived in Spain for a while... great country... I'm missing it!
What I like best about Spain, Bluey, is their bullfights, where they sadistically torture the animals in all ways, and then murder them, while everybody around is hooing and booing crazily ;)
Nicky.
Quote from: bellanova on Tue, 2007-09-11, 14:29:06
I think Blind Ego are probably prog especially seeing who is in the band
Yeah, that's also my impression, Helen. I'll note your vote, but I can't vote myself, as I don't have any chance at the moment to listen properly to them.
Nicky.
Er Nicky....Im not Helen!!!!!
Quote from: bellanova on Tue, 2007-09-11, 15:59:27
Er Nicky....Im not Helen!!!!!
Never mind, Bella - that's our Nicky! ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-11, 15:06:45
What I like best about Spain, Bluey, is their bullfights, where they sadistically torture the animals in all ways, and then murder them, while everybody around is hooing and booing crazily ;)
That's... scary!! :o But maybe a good idea what to do to certain roomies who can't remember other people's names properly. ;) ;D (You wouldn't want to offend one of the few females here, Nicky, would you? No, not me, I was talking about bellanova!)
Sorry, Bella. I had just talked with Helen about Blind Ego, so I guess I just continued unconsciously on the same track. But I know you both were there at the BE gig.
I actually did check them up on MySpace, and what I heard there made me put Mirror on my shopping list.
Nicky
Attaboy! ;D ;)
(Sorry, I DO get stupid sometimes. There hasn't been any cure found yet.) ;)
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-11, 16:07:51
But maybe a good idea what to do to certain roomies ....
I won't forget you, Bluey, for several incarnations, the way you've been torturing me ;D
Nicky.
Ah, but I haven't even started!! ;D
Well, IAC gals, I'll get to know you better if you drop your votes here now. 98% of the votes till now are from male CP's, so now it's your turn.
Take a look at the candidate list on page 1, and give us your list with votes and gladly also some comments.
Nicky.
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-11, 16:27:30
Ah, but I haven't even started!! ;D
Hm, what's life like on Mars? Space Appy, you must know! "Duuuude, it's ......."
Nicky.
IAC? CP's?? Oh my god, he's turning into Appelmoes?? ! :o
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-11, 16:33:43
IAC? CP's?? Oh my god, he's turning into Appelmoes?? ! :o
Du veräppelst mich, Bluey.
Nicky.
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-11, 16:35:36
Why Mars??
Because Mars is for men. I'll be protected there.
Instead of bullshitting (or -fighting) around, Bluey, how about dropping your votes?
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-11, 16:36:05
Du veräppelst mich, Bluey.
Nicky.
Nur, wenn du darauf bestehst! ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-11, 16:37:05
Because Mars is for men. I'll be protected there.
That's what YOU think... ;D
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-11, 16:37:05
Instead of bullshitting (or -fighting) around, Bluey, how about dropping your votes?
Hey, watch your language! ;)
Thought I had already contributed my share... ah well!
I'd particularly like to hear your takes on the Floyd guys' soloalbums. Are they good? Are they prog? I could imagine that there are more Venus energies there, IAC by Dave and Rick, than Mars energies.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 00:59:38
Definitely prog
Well, since you already declared them as "definitely prog", no votes needed here I think.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2007-09-07, 00:59:38
Candidates
Amorphis - growls turned into something you can actually listen to - is that prog? ???
Anathema - see Amorphis
Angra 2 - hmmm... hard one... probably yes
Blind Ego 1 - I'd say yes
Blind Guardian 1 - undecided... :-\
Dark Tranquillity - their later albums have prog elements...
Faith No More - come on! NO!!
The Gathering 1 - nope (sorry!)
Korn I wouldn't say so - new metal more like!
Landmarq 2 yep
Led Zeppelin 1 ???
Paradise Lost I love them, but they're certainly not prog!
Queens Of The Stone Age 1 nah!
Royal Hunt 1- you must be kidding!
Saga 1 maybe...
Savatage well, if Saga are prog, then Savatage must be too...
Tomorrow's Eve 1 if this is the band I remember: prog elements, but not pure prog
The others I either don't know or don't know well enough to vote.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-11, 16:49:29
I'd particularly like to hear your takes on the Floyd guys' soloalbums. Are they good? Are they prog? I could imagine that there are more Venus energies there, IAC by Dave and Rick, than Mars energies.
You'll probably get your bullfighters sword out now, Nicky, and slap me on the head with it, but I must admit that I'm not into Pink Floyd AT ALL... (although I did some translations for a PF fan mag... strange world, this!)
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-11, 16:53:00
Well, since you already declared them as "definitely prog", no votes needed here I think.
That doesn't mean that they're definitely "definitely prog" yet, Bluey. Any objections to this list?
Thanks for your votes and comments re the candidates.
I think that we can now do the following:
Angra and Landmarq get promoted to the prog list.
Amorphis, Faith No More, and Korn go to "not prog".
Blind Ego, Saga, and Savatage get an extra vote.
I don't wanna send Anathema and Paradise Lost into the dark yet, because I consider that their later albums could possibly be classified as prog. Any opins on this matter?
Nicky.
Quote from: bluepony on Tue, 2007-09-11, 16:57:10
... I must admit that I'm not into Pink Floyd AT ALL....
>:( :( :o ??? ::) :-[ :-\ :'(
I thought we were friends, Bluey, in some sense of the word. But now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just brought Gazpacho into the mix. I don't expect it to be too hard to get them on the prog list.
And how about Peter Gabriel?
Votes and comments please.
Nicky.
Although Gazpacho's Night was indeed prog. The other albums clearly not.
Don't know what to do with it. :P
Peter Gabriel. With Genesis he was the one who made it prog, but solo he is as much prog as Phil Collins is...
BTW CP's are Clever Proggies ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-11, 17:10:07
That doesn't mean that they're definitely "definitely prog" yet, Bluey. Any objections to this list?
I would let you know if I had any objections... ;D
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-09-11, 17:10:07
I don't wanna send Anathema and Paradise Lost into the dark yet, because I consider that their later albums could possibly be classified as prog. Any opins on this matter?
Well, I don't consider them as real 'prog' bands, although they made quite some progress within their genre. However, 'Gothic rock' would probably be a much better label for both of them.
Anathema is....noise.
Hey, but Cap, *^`?=)(¤#, listen to A Natural Disaster, it's completely different, more like Radiohead, quiet, atmospheric.
If there's a band that's changed, it's Anathema.
Nicky.
Quote from: Peter on Wed, 2007-09-12, 10:10:32
Anathema is....noise.
It used to be, in their early days, but I think that's changed some time ago. You should really give it another try, you might like what they're doing now! :)
No mention of John Young here. He considers himself to be a prog rocker and many of his songs are certainly of this genre. I wonder how many of you actually knowof him and his music. He is a singer/songwriter but has played with John Wetton and Carl Palmer in Qango and also has his own band, The John Young Band. He definately has my vote plus hes a very nice guy. And i more than sort of know him! But thats another story. i consider him a mate! If you have heard him, give him a listen. He has a website with soundbites on it.
Fine, Bella, I've included John Young on the candidate list with one vote.
You might like to give your votes to some further artists on the list, and maybe you can even name some more that aren't listed.
It's going a bit slow with our poll - I guess roomies are anarchists by nature - but I'll keep prodding people.
Nicky.
Quote from: Peter on Wed, 2007-09-12, 10:10:32
Anathema is....noise.
We should have another section then: The progressive noise-section. :D
Anathema - 1
:P
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2007-09-14, 19:17:48
We should have another section then: The progressive noise-section. :D
Korn could be in that section... ;)
Korn have a section for themselves, nothin like'm.
Nicky.
OK, let's sum up what we have about the Floyd guys' soloalbums:
Mr. John In Black: The Pink Floyd Dudes - As a whole, [prog,] of course, but as individuals the waters are muddied somewhat! I would be inclined to say that their work as a collective is far too Prog for their solo material not to be, but you could equally argue that none of them are Prog as solo acts. Gilmour solo, Prog but could easily be described as being AOR or even Soft Rock. The other two I own nothing from so i'm going only by memory, and i've had quite a few sessions on the Ale since then but heard enough to say Yes you could call them Prog, but as with Gilmour other 'Tags' could fit.
Mr. Paco Lientje: I only heard Gilmour's solo material and although I REALLY like it, I think it's no prog.
As for the others, I don't know, but I've heard that they aren't really prog either.
Mr. Mad Dox: Pink Floyd is prog. Period.
David Gilmour however is not. Not by a mile. Neither is Richard Wright, though very enjoyable. I do consider Roger Water as prog though.
Mr. Nicky 007: To me Roger and Dave have the prog blood rushing through them, so regardless of what they're up to, it's prog, like with Clive. Rick is maybe not as prog as his pals, but still I would classify him prog rather than soft rock.
As you can see, the opinions here differ greatly, so it would be good to have some more contributions. Guys, please!
John, I got your joke about the muddy waters, but I didn't get what you meant with "i've had quite a few sessions on the Ale since then ...."
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-09-17, 16:08:45
John, I got your joke about the muddy waters, but I didn't get what you meant with "i've had quite a few sessions on the Ale since then ...."
Quote from: johninblack on Sun, 2007-09-09, 12:58:03
The other two I own nothing from so i'm going only by memeory, and i've had quite a few sessions on the Ale since then but heard enough to say Yes you could call them Prog, but as with Gilmour other 'Tags' could fit.
Excessive consumption of alcohol has long been associated with memory loss, hence the expression I used meaning that what memories I have of what i've heard could be somewhat muddied by time.......thats all! ;D
I thought the mudding the waters bit was really bloody clever ;D ;D ;D
Oh yeah......back from Summers End, it were a bit good it were!
Quote from: Nicky007 on Mon, 2007-09-17, 16:08:45
OK, let's sum up what we have about the Floyd guys' soloalbums: ....
Come on guys, it can't be that on the biggest Arena chat forum there are only four guys who have delved into the world of Floyd + sideprojects :o
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-09-19, 13:50:03
Come on guys, it can't be that on the biggest Arena chat forum there are only four guys who have delved into the world of Floyd + sideprojects :o
Nicky.
Like i already said, i don't consider Gilmour's and Wright's solo stuff as prog. It holds too much mellow elements in it to describe it as prog.
Roger Water's stuff has those moments too but on a far lesser scale. You can listen to each and every solo album of him and it actually does sound like Floyd when he was still a member of it.
The early stuff of Floyd, with Syd Barret, isn't really typical prog too but from Dark Side onward it in my opinion is. Nowadays i frequently play albums like Meddle, Wish You Were Here, Animals and The Final Cut for instance. Great work, every one of them. Funny thing is, when i first began listen to stuff like Floyd, Genesis and Marillion for instance, i always 'labelled' them as Symphonic Rock. Progressive Rock simply didn't exist for me and with Yes, the bands mentioned earlier were the four 'Dinosaurs' of Symphonic Rock music. It wasn't until later, far later i learned the many, very many diversities in prog/sympho/neo etc etc music.
Hope this helps. :P
Quote from: maddox on Wed, 2007-09-19, 14:58:47
Funny thing is, when i first began listen to stuff like Floyd, Genesis and Marillion for instance, i always 'labelled' them as Symphonic Rock. Progressive Rock simply didn't exist for me and with Yes, the bands mentioned earlier were the four 'Dinosaurs' of Symphonic Rock music. It wasn't until later, far later i learned the many, very many diversities in prog/sympho/neo etc etc music.
Same here, apart from the "dinosaur" jive, which I'v never liked, because it gives me a picture of something oversized and lumbering.
I had a long period of "spirituality" (oh, wow man, big thing .... ok, back to normal mode) (1982-2002), where I was out of the rock beat. Before that, we were using the term "symphonic rock" about Floyd & Co., never "progressive" or "prog".
But I like the expression "prog", because it really means to me "breaking into new territory".
> Hope this helps. :P
Yes, it does. Thanks, Maddox. Would be good to get some of the "sleeping dogs" up on their feet too though.
Nicky.
Interesting - from Wikipedia, AOR: "A broad cross section of rock music that gained popularity during this time [early 70's] came to be called Progressive Rock, likely because the wide recognition and success of artists could be attributed to airplay on Progressive [radio] stations; much the way the College Rock label was given to bands that received air play on student-run college stations during the 1980s."
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2007-09-19, 16:24:03
Interesting - from Wikipedia, AOR: "A broad cross section of rock music that gained popularity during this time [early 70's] came to be called Progressive Rock, likely because the wide recognition and success of artists could be attributed to airplay on Progressive [radio] stations; much the way the College Rock label was given to bands that received air play on student-run college stations during the 1980s."
Nicky.
Not very interesting for me. :-\ AOR is American Orientated Rock. You know, stuff like Journey and Survivor for example. Nice music with some impressive highlights but i wouldn't go that far to call it 'progressive'. :-\
"Adult Orientated Rock"
It IS interesting.
It's a crossover to prog. People who like AOR are more likely to like prog than people who don't listen to AOR.
Quote from: maddox on Wed, 2007-09-19, 16:49:31
Not very interesting for me. :-\ AOR is American Orientated Rock. You know, stuff like Journey and Survivor for example. Nice music with some impressive highlights but i wouldn't go that far to call it 'progressive'. :-\
Sorry, Maddox, but you didn't read that excerpt properly :)
Nicky.
Here's the third possibility for them meaning of "AOR": Album Oriented Rock.
Quote from: Peter on Sun, 2007-09-23, 13:04:01
Here's the third possibility for the meaning of "AOR": Album Oriented Rock.
That's actually the original meaning, Cap (in case you didn't know). Then it became additionally "Adult-...". "American-..." is just Maddox's joke. (That guy's sooo funny. It's a speciality called "marshumor".)
Wikipedia - on AOR: "Album-oriented rock (sometimes referred to as Adult-oriented rock), abbreviated AOR and originally called album-oriented radio, was originally an American FM radio format focusing on album tracks by rock artists. This format developed and popularized the repertoire of music currently associated with Classic Rock."
However, the term AOR is seldomly used in serious music circles, because here all music is album oriented.
Nicky.
Erik, JJ, and Mdread666, with all your prog experience, maybe you guys would like to contribute to our discussion on which groups are prog.
There were about 50 groups that landed easily on our list of prog groups, but then we (Maddox, John, Paco, Bluey, Bupie, Bella, and I) got into a stalemate. So it would be great with some more expert votes and opinions, also on the groups on the "definitely prog" list.
All other roomies are welcome too to contribute.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-10-02, 11:13:24
Erik, JJ and Mdread666, with all your prog experience, maybe you guys would like to contribute to our discussion on which groups are prog.
There were about 50 groups that landed easily on our list of prog groups, but then we (Maddox, John, Paco, Bluey, Bupie, Bella, and I) got into a stalemate. So it would be great with some more expert votes and opinions, also on the groups on the "definitely prog" list.
All other roomies are welcome too to contribute.
Nicky.
Oh dear, I had already been dreading to open and read this thread... ::) Thanks for the invite Nicky, I will ponder a bit more and get back on this. For now suffice to say that:
0 I'm more a "revisionist" (or "inclusive" so to say) than a "purist" and for instance later era Talk Talk (Spirit Of Eden and Laughing Stock) is prog in my book!
0 As for genres, labelling and definitions: Prog Archives (http://www.progarchives.com) distinguishes these sub-genres:
PROG SUB-GENRES: Canterbury Scene - Crossover Prog (old: Art Rock) - Eclectic Prog - Experimental/Post-Rock - Indo-Prog/Raga Rock - Italian Symphonic Prog - Jazz Rock/Fusion - Heavy Prog - Krautrock - Neo Progressive - Prog Folk - Progressive Electronic - Progressive Metal - Psychedelic/Space Rock - RIO/Avant-Prog - Symphonic Prog - Zeuhl - Various Genres/Artists - Prog Related - Proto-Prog
They all have definitions and key albums listed (based on user ratings), for instance:
Proto-Prog definition: Rock Bands in existence prior to 1969 that influenced the development of progressive rock. The late 60's was a predominately experimental period for music. These bands were moving in a stream that eventually led to prog. The influence could have come from new sophisticated forms of writing and playing music, recording techniques, new instruments and vocal harmonies to name a few. Some of these bands became progressive rock bands themselves others did not.
Examples: Beatles, The Who, Procul Harum, etc
Erik, I suggest that you (and others) include as much as possible initially, and then we can see what other roomies think. I consider that the criterion of three votes from roomies is still appropriate. We can hope to end up on somewhat common ground. Till now noone seems to have disapproved violently.
I find that the discussions under this topic have been very interesting.
And thanks for your reference to Progarchives. I'm going there now to find out what the heck Zeuhl, RIO, and Canterbury are - never heard of'm.
Nicky.
So, now that it's a bit quiet here in the Room, maybe we can get a bit further with this topic.
Man, one really has to grab people by the b* to get stuff done here ::)
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-10-23, 13:03:10
Man, one really has to grab people by the b* to get stuff done here ::)
Guess that means I'm no longer part of the discussion? ;D
OK, bo* then :D
Nicky.
What?? :o
Bluey, you think we might be getting off-topic here?
I think they'd have evening classes in anatomy in Krautville ....... ;D
Nicky.
Getting off-topic is my speciality - thought you had realized that by now. ;)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2007-10-23, 14:02:00
I think they'd have evening classes in anatomy in Krautville ....... ;D
Perhaps, but I don't think I need to attend them. :P
I know what you meant, I was just shocked.