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Re: Ayreon / DT / PT dislike

Started by Appelmoes??, Thu, 2005-08-18, 19:22:08

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Appelmoes??

Quote from: Rafal on Wed, 2005-08-17, 15:30:02
1) Dream Theater (hate their attitude towards music, their songwriting and lyrics)
2) Porcupine Tree (hate their music and its impact on today's prog)
3) Arjen Lucassen's various projects (hate the lyrics and the atmosphere)

Do you hate every song? :o
For some good reading visit:""Fluffy Kittens of DOOM"!

My drawings on MySpace


Proglady

Quote from: Rafal on Wed, 2005-08-17, 15:30:02
My pet hate list includes:

1) Dream Theater (hate their attitude towards music, their songwriting and lyrics)
2) Porcupine Tree (hate their music and its impact on today's prog)
3) Arjen Lucassen's various projects (hate the lyrics and the atmosphere)


:o Oooohhhhhh, I'm shocked

maddox

rafal, you're not making any friends here. although, some pretty interesting bands in your list. except for the alman brothers off course.
But hey, ieder z'n meug....

MAD.  8)
Cause of Injury: Lack of Adhesive Ducks.

Peter

Dear, no DT, I could get away with that, no PT, okay, a bit harder, but...

but Ayreon.....

everyone to his own taste, well...
Arriving somewhere, but not here....

POM

Quote from: Proglady on Thu, 2005-08-18, 21:09:23
:o Oooohhhhhh, I'm shocked


Mee too!     ::)

But... as Peter said "everyone to his own taste"

Proglady

Quote from: POM on Fri, 2005-08-19, 14:37:55

Mee too!     ::)

But... as Peter said "everyone to his own taste"

I agree wth you Pom and Peter  :)

oddball

The truth must be told. Arjen's lyrics are silly! And the music of Ayreon is rather pompous...  :(
There's really nothing to achieve

Peter

Quote from: oddball on Fri, 2005-08-19, 17:02:23
The truth must be told. Arjen's lyrics are silly!

Silly? I mean, he tells a story with (almost) every album he makes. What's so silly about that?

QuoteAnd the music of Ayreon is rather pompous...  :(

Em, yes, that's what makes his music so good :) It's hard, glorious and monumental!

I mean, we already have one Andreas Vollenweider, right, no need for another one :P
Arriving somewhere, but not here....

Appelmoes??

Quote from: oddball on Fri, 2005-08-19, 17:02:23
The truth must be told. Arjen's lyrics are silly! And the music of Ayreon is rather pompous...  :(
No need to display your opinion as "the truth" ::)
For some good reading visit:""Fluffy Kittens of DOOM"!

My drawings on MySpace


Wilford Jr.

Quote from: Peter on Fri, 2005-08-19, 17:12:21
Silly? I mean, he tells a story with (almost) every album he makes. What's so silly about that?

Em, yes, that's what makes his music so good :) It's hard, glorious and monumental!

I mean, we already have one Andreas Vollenweider, right, no need for another one :P

I agree with Peter, POM, and Proglady.  I like Ayreon's albums. BTW who is Andreas Vollenweider?  Thanks.
No longer feeling anything
Fading fast
Nothing lasts
Beyond the waking hour

Appelmoes??

Thank's Peter, when you just read the topic title, it looks like I dislike Ayreon, DT and PT ;) :P
For some good reading visit:""Fluffy Kittens of DOOM"!

My drawings on MySpace


oddball

QuoteSilly? I mean, he tells a story with (almost) every album he makes. What's so silly about that?

Well, a story about a blind minstrel living in the dark ages who is chosen to save the world by telepathic commands from the future may be alright if you're sixteen years old. Sorry, but to me it sounds silly.
You can call it kitsch as well. The music is of course a thing of personal preferences. I don't like Heavy Metal at all. But I only said it's pompeous, what it might as well be. He can write nice little pop melodies, no doubt, but mostly it is overambitioned. But this seems to be typical for this subgenre.
And forget about Vollenweider. Not everyone who's not into metal must sound like Vollenweider. I do like Porcupine Tree for instance.

appelmoes said:
QuoteNo need to display your opinion as "the truth"
No, I don't think that I'm in posession of the truth. It was only a phrase I used as a reaction to the shocked postings caused by the original posting of Rafal.
There's really nothing to achieve

Deenfan

Quote from: Peter on Fri, 2005-08-19, 17:12:21
Silly? I mean, he tells a story with (almost) every album he makes. What's so silly about that?

Em, yes, that's what makes his music so good :) It's hard, glorious and monumental!

I mean, we already have one Andreas Vollenweider, right, no need for another one :P


I so agree I don't feel like an individual anymore!!! You scare me, Peter!!

Quote from: oddball on Sun, 2005-08-21, 21:46:24
Well, a story about a blind minstrel living in the dark ages who is chosen to save the world by telepathic commands from the future may be alright if you're sixteen years old. Sorry, but to me it sounds silly.

Then just about all adventures or fairy tales are silly, I would guess. Not putting words in your mouth, of course, but it seems so. I was, to be honest, not altogether swallowing that future computer program business, myself. I put it on hold for a while, and I'm glad I did. I learned quickly that Arjen's story was a part or a facet of a greater scheme. All these years later, when he's been producing fantastic album after fantastic album, more of the concept shines through. I do no longer find any hiccups in the minstrel story. It's setting is based upon a very special theory about the creation of the world, and indeed the universe. It's turned into a very intricate and interesting fantasy fiction.

Everything in "The lord of the rings" is silly if you don't accept the concept of another world, or another universe. Arjen's world is the one we live in, but things are not how we think. Very intriguing, in my mind. Not that "we" agree on how the world was created, anyway!!! :)

I want to underline that I do not tell anyone that they're wrong. Just telling my side of it. Make up your own minds. Maybe this "essay" counts for something? If so, yeaaahh!! ;D

Peter

Quote from: oddball on Sun, 2005-08-21, 21:46:24And forget about Vollenweider. Not everyone who's not into metal must sound like Vollenweider.

That comparison was just as overdone as your statement... :P

QuoteI do like Porcupine Tree for instance.

Great!

Interestingly, Rafal hasn't said anything about all this since his startup post....
Arriving somewhere, but not here....

Rafal

None of my previous 10 or so posts has gained that many responses. I thank you all for being so delicate in expressing your disagreement. This could only happen on a prog forum. Now some comments on my dislike list (perhaps that's a better word than hatred). :

1) Dream Theater
There's a review of 'Train of Thought' that I wish I had writen myself:
http://www.progressiveworld.net/dream12.html
Of course there ARE exceptions but more often than not I find their songs forced and the  performance - cold and mechanical. And that's precisely what I can't bear in music.

2) Porcupine Tree: dehumanizing prog
To put it simply: I think they are killing the music I adore.

a) Barbieri live: I could probably play his parts myself. I know enough of computers to find ENTER key on any keyboard. And he isn't doing much more live , is he?

b) Wilson:  A gifted producer, lyricist and singer. I have to give him that. But his guitar soloing fails to impress me - not enough melodical content. And if you take away the state-of-the-art production from any of PT albums there's not much left. This overinvesting in production department at the cost of music itself is not acceptable for me. And what's worse - it is becoming the standard in prog's world. More and more bands do just that. Layers of sound put together in studios instead of intelligent and sensitive human-to-human interplay. 

3) Ayreon
What infuriates me here, is that I could love his music if only some minor changes were made. I am a big fan of rock operas in general. Lucassen's guitar and keyboard soloing is brilliant and the vocal melodies - moving. Perhaps not all of the songs, but some would surely send the shivers down my spine. If only Arjen Lucassen:

a) Would  hire an outside lyricist. The man himself admits in the interviews that he reads no books beacause he has no time. He never had. Now, does he really need to confess that? No, beacuse it is perfectly obvious for anyone who's reading his texts. I can do with  awkward, heavy-handed hack writing in hard rock but not in prog concept albums where words are of the essence. I can't help thinking that Human Equation shows human relations in an extremely silly, pretentious and cliche-ridden way. The protagonist's family and friends are out-of-this-planet, one-dimensional archetypal characters. I am not sure what kind of Equation this album is, but Human it is surely not. I know not such people. Do you?

b) Would show some more light, some more sense of humour in the arrangments and melodies. Ironically, with all that impressive cast and musical styles used, I dare say there's a certain emotional monotony here, when compared to Nolan & Wakeman albums, Arena or IQ.  But this is a highly subjective observation. Well, all of them are.








Moonloop

Quote from: Rafal on Mon, 2005-08-22, 13:29:45

b) Wilson:  A gifted producer, lyricist and singer. I have to give him that. But his guitar soloing fails to impress me - not enough melodical content. And if you take away the state-of-the-art production from any of PT albums there's not much left. This overinvesting in production department at the cost of music itself is not acceptable for me. And what's worse - it is becoming the standard in prog's world. More and more bands do just that. Layers of sound put together in studios instead of intelligent and sensitive human-to-human interplay. 



I totally disagree (politely, of course  ;) ). I remember an interview with SW a couple of years ago where the interviewer did accuse PT of 'overproduction values'.  SW made the point that 'In Absentia' was recorded in 3 weeks compared to Peter Gabriel's "Up" which took 6 years.

Personally I hear more melody and songwriting in PTs music than most other modern prog. To be honest though, I've stopped calling them a prog band, 'experimental rock' is probably more appropriate. Each to their own of course though....

Cheers  ;D
The brainwashed do not know that they are brainwashed...

maddox

Lets say that everybody is entitled to have his own opinion. It's not my opinion, but that's not the question. If you "dislike" DT, okay, if you "dislike" PT, allrighty then, even when you say that you "dislike" Ayreon, i won't get angry. But to express your opinion in this unique way, is to put it mildly, not nice in my point of view.
On your comments on PT., well, can't make heads or tales out of this. It's not really importend if Wilson is a gifted guitarist or not, it's not really importend if Richard Barbieri is an excellent keyboard player or not and so on and so on.
It is really about the gifted skills that binds them together, creating magnificent songs. prog or not, whatever you want to label them.
And Ayreon? well, in a way, you are a little bit right if you say that the lyrics are sometimes quite dull, but it's the combination of songs and lyrics that makes the songs marvellous. But that is off course my opinion. And as a real DT-fan, since 1991, i think i know lot more of their music to know you are very wrong. But maybe this is not nice of me either.
On the other hand, it is a great thing that we have this discussion, to let each other know what we feel about the music, and why.
So, to say it in the words of Moonloop, i totally disagree. And even for me, politly of course.  ;)


MAD.  8)
Cause of Injury: Lack of Adhesive Ducks.

Simtere

Quote from: Moonloop on Mon, 2005-08-22, 14:27:41
I remember an interview with SW a couple of years ago ......

So do I (although not the same one) and he was not exactly politically correct or "nice" himself in his comments about Arena!  But then, that has nothing at all to do with the music.  The guy made a twat of himself in my eyes, but that's my opinion and not one I care if others agree with or not - I still like the albums and thats all that counts at the end of the day.

Dream Theater - Over the years I have bought most of the albums and so far only liked "Scenes From a Memory" - the rest I have not bothered keeping.  Again it does not matter if other people think they are the best thing since sliced bread or cannot stand them.  I have an album in my collection that I love, and have got rid of some I did not care for.  Anyone not familiar with the band I would heartily recommend Scene's as a worthy addition to your collection.

As for Ayreon .... not my cup of tea at all.  I tried, I bought all the albums, but was happy to see the back of them along with the ex wife when we split  few years back.  Cannot recommend him, but would not condemn the music either - it's not for me.

And my point!   Well, at the end of the day my philosophy is that it does not matter whether people like stuff you like, and it does not matter if they have views you see as valid or not.  Sure make your own point (as I have) and move on. We are never all going to agree on things so don't worry about it ; )   At the same time thought try and keep your world view as positive as you can - it makes life a lot easier for you and those around you and will reduce stress in the forum.

maddox

Quote from: Simtere on Tue, 2005-08-23, 14:05:00
  At the same time thought try and keep your world view as positive as you can - it makes life a lot easier for you and those around you and will reduce stress in the forum.

AMEN.  ;)

MAD.  8)
Cause of Injury: Lack of Adhesive Ducks.

Stuart

Each to his own I say. I did see DT live at the Astoria and though it was a very emotional performance at time, but I know their technicality level leaves some people cold.

OK Rafal, chance to redeem yourself here, which prog bands DO you like? You did mention Nolan & Wakeman albums, Arena or IQ in one post.

keyboardistmatt

Quote from: Rafal on Mon, 2005-08-22, 13:29:45
b) Wilson:  A gifted producer, lyricist and singer. I have to give him that. But his guitar soloing fails to impress me - not enough melodical content.

Errr... Since when did a guitar solo have to contain tonnes of melodic content? :)
...Is this just a dream I'm in?

~~Drallion official Facebook page:~~
www.facebook.com/DrallionOfficial

<- Click the planet to go to Twitter @Keyboardistmatt

keyboardistmatt

Quote from: maddox on Thu, 2005-08-18, 21:52:25
rafal, you're not making any friends here. although, some pretty interesting bands in your list. except for the alman brothers off course.

Does anybody like Simon & Garfunkel? ;D
...Is this just a dream I'm in?

~~Drallion official Facebook page:~~
www.facebook.com/DrallionOfficial

<- Click the planet to go to Twitter @Keyboardistmatt

maddox

Quote from: keyboardistmatt on Mon, 2005-08-29, 15:17:05
Does anybody like Simon & Garfunkel? ;D

Actually, some songs are quite good. I even own two LP's of them. Really relaxing on a Monday evening... ;D

MAD.  8)
Cause of Injury: Lack of Adhesive Ducks.

Appelmoes??

Quote from: maddox on Mon, 2005-08-29, 20:44:20
Actually, some songs are quite good. I even own two LP's of them. Really relaxing on a Monday evening... ;D

MAD.  8)
Relaxing indeed :)
For some good reading visit:""Fluffy Kittens of DOOM"!

My drawings on MySpace


Moonloop

Quote from: Simtere on Tue, 2005-08-23, 14:05:00
So do I (although not the same one) and he was not exactly politically correct or "nice" himself in his comments about Arena!  But then, that has nothing at all to do with the music.  The guy made a twat of himself in my eyes, but that's my opinion and not one I care if others agree with or not - I still like the albums and thats all that counts at the end of the day.


That was probably an early Classic Rock interview where he slagged off the 'neo-prog' movement in general as being generic and formulaic (or something like that). What he didn't do though was name specific bands - the mag "helpfully" inserted some (Arena included) so readers would have some indication what type of music he was on about. SW wrote to the mag complaining and they printed his letter with an apology for miss-quoting him.

Agree though, he is a bit too opinionated at times  :D

The brainwashed do not know that they are brainwashed...