I'm starting a topic that could become quite polemic and exciting:
I dont think anybody here disagrees that UK and USA are the two leading countries with regard to great rock (or?).
So which country comes in as third ? - and why ?
Nicky.
This will probably lead to an endless discusion about what's rock and what's not.
I think the USA are far behind on europe when it comes to rock. In Finland, Sonata Arctica can get a number 1 position in the charts, while in the USA Blond bimbo's and Ghetto Gangsta's rule the charts ::)
I think the best rock is to be found in Northern Europe.
Appy, I think you misunderstood a bit what my intent is. I dont want to discuss charts. My object is to discuss where the best rock, or prog, if you prefer, is made. USA has bred Dream Theater, SyX, Kamelot, Stride, Redemption, Steve Vai, Mars Volta, and many other great groups, which entitles them to a first or second place in world prog imo.
But I'm not either asking for a discussion on whether UK or USA are first, because there I realise that our very different tastes would prob lead to purposeless polemics.
Nicky.
Sweden is probably third.
I'd even think they would become second.
1. UK
2. Sweden
3. USA
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2008-01-08, 21:08:30But I'm not either asking for a discussion on whether UK or USA are first, because there I realise that our very different tastes would prob lead to purposeless polemics.
Oh ;D Hehehehe sorry!
-Paco
Paco, I have to engage you on this (you can take it :) ).
I can see from your LP that the only US groups that you know properly are DT, Spock's Beard, and OSI. Man, there's a bunch of great US groups waiting for you to listen to them, even in the lighter and medium heavy area that you seem to go for: Tool, A Perfect Circle, Stride, Shadow Gallery, Amaran's Plight, Abigail's Ghost, Fates Warning, Chris Cornell, Eleven, TILES, Hurt, Stone Temple Pilots, Enchant, Psychotic Waltz, and if you like DT you have to like SyX too.
Take a look across the Atlantic, my friend, and you'l be surprised at what you'l find.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2008-01-09, 11:57:05
Man, there's a bunch of great US groups waiting for you to listen to them, even in the lighter and medium heavy area that you seem to go for: Tool, A Perfect Circle, Stride, Shadow Gallery, Amaran's Plight, Abigail's Ghost, Fates Warning, Chris Cornell, Eleven, TILES, Hurt, Stone Temple Pilots, Enchant, Psychotic Waltz, and if you like DT you have to like SyX too.
Wicky Nicky, I can not believe that you didn't even mention Kansas. Tss, tss ...
Quote
Take a look across the Atlantic, my friend, and you'l be surprised at what you'l find.
Do you mean Transatlantic ? I guess PH already has already taken a look ;D
By the way, Nick, between Sweden and Finland, what would you pick ? Those days, I have a pretty clear opinion on this ;D
Quote from: Bupie on Wed, 2008-01-09, 14:51:59
Wicky Nicky, I can not believe that you didn't even mention Kansas. Tss, tss ...
OK, Bupie, let's include Kansas, and even Toto :) I used to listen quite a lot to Toto, as I had a good friend who had several of their albums, but nowadays I'm more to wilder stuff; but Kansas' Leftoverture is a beautiful album, and it goes into my player quite often.
Quote from: Bupie on Wed, 2008-01-09, 14:51:59
Do you mean Transatlantic ? I guess PH already has already taken a look ;D
;D Bups. Yeah, I like TA a lot too. Well, anything with those five guys (incl. Daniel G) just has to be ... whoopeedoopeedee !!! :D
Quote from: Bupie on Wed, 2008-01-09, 14:51:59
By the way, Nick, between Sweden and Finland, what would you pick ? Those days, I have a pretty clear opinion on this ;D
Bups, you'l of course choose Finland, as the Finnish women are quite somethin *horns* , but to be honest with you, although I try out Finnish groups every so often on MySpace and at the CD-stores, there's nothing (yet) from Finland that really has gripped me. SA's Unia was close to it, but then when I gave it a closer listen, it rocked alright, but seemed unoriginal to me. Anybody disagree ? I want people who "push frontiers". I'm finished with soothers, quite honestly. (I'v committed so many sins in my life, dat one or two more dont make no diff.) ;D
I'l keep my choice of third till later. That's my prerogative as topic admin ;)
As an example of great crazy guys, look to the NP-topic ....
I hope you appreciate my elegant multiquoting. Did it special for you, mon copain :)
Nicky.
Quote from: Bupie on Wed, 2008-01-09, 14:51:59
... between Sweden and Finland, what would you pick ? Those days, I have a pretty clear opinion on this ;D
Finland! They have Nightwish, H.I.M. and many more...! ;D
Well, I guess the Finnish men are quite somethin too *horns* ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2008-01-09, 15:57:23
I hope you appreciate my elegant multiquoting. Did it special for you, mon copain :)
I am impressed ;)
Quote from: bluepony on Wed, 2008-01-09, 15:58:38
Finland! They have Nightwish, H.I.M. and many more...! ;D
8) ;D
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2008-01-09, 11:57:05I can see from your LP that the only US groups that you know properly are DT, Spock's Beard, and OSI. Man, there's a bunch of great US groups waiting for you to listen to them, even in the lighter and medium heavy area that you seem to go for: Tool, A Perfect Circle, Stride, Shadow Gallery, Amaran's Plight, Abigail's Ghost, Fates Warning, Chris Cornell, Eleven, TILES, Hurt, Stone Temple Pilots, Enchant, Psychotic Waltz, and if you like DT you have to like SyX too.
You forget that in my listenings profile I only mention bands of which I got the actual albums. I've listened to soooo many bands, but some weren't worth my harddrive space... ;)
I DID listen to Tool, Shadow Gallery, Amaran's Plight, Fates Warning, Enchant, Psychotic Waltz, and Symphony X.
Of that list only Symphony X really is worth to get in my CD collection. And (as you could have known) both
V: The Mythology Suite and
Paradise Lost are on my to buy list!
Shadow Gallery has done some very good songs, but overall I don't really dig the stuff. The latest album was nothing for me.
I've listened to Amaran's Plight recently, and I think that's a really good band. I have to put that one on my to buy list too.
Enchant is just not good enough for me. Maybe with another album. (I'm a bit of a critic, I know...)
The rest is not even worth to talk about in this post. ;)
I've listened to the myspaces and samples of A Perfect Circle, Stride, Abigail's Ghost and Chris Cornell and it wasn't my cup of tea. Although I must confess that I might give Abigail's Ghost another chance since their sound is very close to Porcupine Tree and I didn't have much time to check them out properly.
That leaves Eleven, TILES, Hurt and Stone Temple Pilots.
Can you tell me more about them?
Paco, I'm sure that if you listened sufficiently to Chris Cornell's Euphoria Morning, Fates Warning's A Pleasant Shade Of Grey, Kansas' Leftoverture, and Tool's 10,000 Days, you'd like'm.
Stride's Imagine could be a tad too heavy for you, although it's tremendously melodic too, and Gary Belin's singing is fabulous.
Eleven are on the border between indie and prog, very special and imaginative. The main persons are Alain Johannes and Natasha Shneider, who are privately a couple, and they compose the music and both sing. I think you'd like Avantgardedog and Howling Book.
Stone Temple Pilots could be described as a grungy version of Beatles, melodic like Beatles, and grungy. I like all their albums.
TILES - hm, I didnt expect you to ask about'm ;D Looks like Mad knows'm quite well.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2008-01-09, 21:48:30Paco, I'm sure that if you listened sufficiently to Chris Cornell's Euphoria Morning, Fates Warning's A Pleasant Shade Of Gray, Kansas' Leftoverture, and Tool's 10,000 Days, you'd like'm.
Stride's Imagine could be a tad too heavy for you, although it's tremendously melodic too, and Gary Belin's singing is fabulous.
Eleven are on the border between indie and prog, very special and imaginative. The main persons are Alain Johannes and Natasha Shneider, who are privately a couple, and they compose the music and both sing. I think you'd like Avantgardedog and Howling Book.
Stone Temple Pilots could be described as a grungy version of Beatles, melodic like Beatles, and grungy. I like all their albums.
TILES - hm, I didnt expect you to ask about'm ;D Looks like Mad knows'm quite well.
Thanks Nicky.
Of course I will give them a second/third (or in some cases fourth) chance.
You'll hear from me soon about that.
Now back on topic! ;D
At least let Sweden be in the top 3.
They've got The Flower Kings (I don't like them that much, but it seems many proggers like them, and I recognise their importance in the evolution of prog).
And:
- A.C.T
- Anekdoten
- Anglagard
- Beardfish
- Ritual
- Kaipa
- Pain Of Salvation
- Paatos
- Opeth
- Mind's Eye
- Meshuggah
- Landberk
- Evergrey
- Galleon
I don't like all of 'em, but I know of their existence and I know that there are a LOT of people listening to these bands.
-Paco
Quote from: Nicky007 on Tue, 2008-01-08, 21:08:30
Appy, I think you misunderstood a bit what my intent is. I dont want to discuss charts. My object is to discuss where the best rock, or prog, if you prefer, is made. USA has bred Dream Theater, SyX, Kamelot, Stride, Redemption, Steve Vai, Mars Volta, and many other great groups, which entitles them to a first or second place in world prog imo.
But I'm not either asking for a discussion on whether UK or USA are first, because there I realise that our very different tastes would prob lead to purposeless polemics.
Nicky.
So, in that case my opinion doesn't matter? I said it was going to lead to a discusion, that's why I started it. I could have just posted some countries and then you or some one else would have said: "nooooo, blabladi-opinion-bla". And then we'd still have a discusion.
Don't ask questions if you don't like the answers ??? If you ask something, you'll get an opinion, and if you get an opinion, there's a big chance it differs from yours.
If this is a poll (which it is not btw) you should have set some parameters. What is rock, when is it considered
great rock, when is a country good in producing rock. etc... This is impossible :-\
Appy, of course your opinions matter, particularly since you're a long-term faithful member of the Room !
I cant quite get what you're criticising in this topic, but let's cut thru, and maybe you could list the five countries in prioritised order from which the rock that you like best comes from, and perhaps you could even list your fave bands from the resp. countries.
Lookin forward to seein your list :)
And Paco, thanks for your answer. But *!§"#¤%& you forgot Seventh Wonder, Dark Tranquillity, Andromeda, and Katatonia in your list, all four great groups !
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Wed, 2008-01-09, 16:01:56
Well, I guess the Finnish men are quite somethin too *horns* ;D
Nicky.
If you say so, Nicky... ;)
Quote from: bluepony on Thu, 2008-01-10, 09:22:48
If you say so, Nicky... ;)
Just remember to take lots of warm clothes with you when you go there; the winters are sooooooooooooo cold. And I hope you like vodka too (you can always have a bottle of coke to mix it with in your handbag) ;D
Nicky.
Hmm, i could pick a few countries who are really good in Prog but since the question is Rock i must admit that i really have no idea.
Since the dawn of time (read: music) both UK and USA are leading the competition so to say and although there are a few good rock bands over here, i'm sure there are others in for instance Germany.
But we don't know them. Not every that is.
Hey, you guys are like a bag o' fleas, man !
I aint talkin bout no f*in science, music history, bimbo charts, hiphip dudes, etc.. I'm askin you: Where does the rock that you love come from ?
And again, the question whether UK or US is leading is very subjective here in the Room, so I'm trying to get around it and ask more specifically: From which country, excl. UK and US, does the rock that you dig come from primarily ?
And you're welcome to list several countries in prioritised order.
OK guys ? So no more f*in around, OK ? ;D
I think that at least Paco, Mad, Tom, Bluey, Bupie, and Cap should have some qualified opinion bout that. And you other guys are also very welcome to come with your opinion.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2008-01-11, 12:20:17
I think that at least Paco, Mad, Tom, Bluey, Bupie, and Cap should have some qualified opinion bout that. And you other guys are also very welcome to come with your opinion.
Nicky.
You really think my opinion is qualified?! :o
Hey - who are you, and what did you do to Nicky!? ;)
Well, let's see... I mostly got albums of British and US bands, but there's the occasional German (favourite) band in there as well. So I guess my choice of "good rock" countries should be:
- UK
- USA
- Germany
(followed by Finland, The Netherlands and Sweden/Norway)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2008-01-11, 12:20:17And again, the question whether UK or US is leading is very subjective here in the Room, so I'm trying to get around it and ask more specifically: From which country, excl. UK and US, does the rock that you dig come from primarily ?
You know, I love you man, I really do, but you're talking like an old man now. ;D
You seriously want to make an objective list based on subjective opinions?
Stating that UK and USA are 1st and 2nd is already subjective to begin with.
What do you want to hear? Quality? Quantity? Prog? Rock?
We deal with differences:
- definition of rock (when is it rock, when is it metal, when is it blues, when is it pop)
- definitian of prog (when is it too complex, when is it too simple, when is it alternative, is gothic prog, does it sound like 70s music, does it sound like 80s music, does it sound like nothing else at all)
- opinions (I like it, I dislike it, I LOVE it, it's great, it's boring, it's a masterpiece)
- albums (the first album was better than the second, all of their albums are good, none of their albums are good, the latest is the best)
You say it is a fact that UK and USA are the best.
So what's worth an opinion?
Either let us give our full opinion without any premeditated unquestionable conclusions, or ask for facts in numbers and marks.
OK, Paco-smartass, two things:
1. Yes, I do believe that if a self-styled proggie doesnt place US as nb 1 or 2, that's because s/he is oblivious of the great prog that's come from the States during the past forty years. And I'l go to my death with this conviction, and I'm sure Mad and Tom would too ! Und dammit basta !
2. I never f*in ever said that this topic was supposed to be objective. You think I'm an idiot ? Well, dont answer that ! I know that proggies will variously choose - as third - Sweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Germany, Marshland, Ireland, Poland, and Italy - and I guess that's about it.
Nicky.
OK then, my opinion.
The 3 top countries for progressive based rock music are UK USA and Sweden. Now this is where it gets problematical, if you are particularly into 'Neo-Prog' then Britain is so far out front that all the 'Neo-Proggers' should move here. If however you tend to prefer 'Prog-Metal' the USA is where you need to be looking. I like both so it looks like I should be heading for Sweden as overall the music from there covers the full spectrum without too much bias in any one area.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2008-01-11, 12:20:17
.. I'm askin you: Where does the rock that you love come from ?
Than forgive us not understanding your question, nicky. ;)
The top three of my rock/prog/whatever music would be in random order UK, USA and Sweden.
Done some searching and Sweden tops a couple of other countries like Germany, Norway and even Netherlands.
By the way no one is saying that someone is an 'idiot'. I can't imagine us being that blunt. ;)
Paco, Bluey, John, and Mad, thanks for your interesting contributions.
OK, I guess I too should come into the field a bit now.
For me it's still pretty even between Sweden and Germany - as third. Sweden has more great groups: particularly Opeth, Seventh Wonder, Pain Of Salvation, and Andromeda; but Germany has Sieges Even, who for me range in the world top league together with Arena, DT, Ten, and Tool.
But Mad, honestly, although Sweden is really resplendent here, arent UK and US still quantitative-qualitatively way ahead of all other countries ?
Nicky.
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2008-01-11, 15:30:38
By the way no one is saying that someone is an 'idiot'. I can't imagine us being that blunt. ;)
Only idiots call others idiots. And I wouldnt be such an idiot as to call myself an idiot ;D
Nicky.
US:
- SB
- Savatage
- Neal Morse
UK:
- Arena
- Threshold
- Mostly Autumn
NL:
- Stream of Passion
- Ayreon
- Star One
- After Forever (first 4 albums)
- Within Temptation (first 3 albums)
- Asrai
Scandinavia:
- LOTS
This is just to show that the UK and US aren't by definition the number 1 and 2. It's all personal anyway. That why I don't see the statement you're trying to make Nicky. If you'd made a poll, with lot's of country names in it, then we could have voted on what we listen the most and think are best. Then you could have had some statistics on which you could have based your opinion. But then the US and UK could still be on different spots then 1 and 2.
(btw. I didn't put DT and SX in my list at US, because I hardly listen to them anymore. And besides, SX last album was craptastic imo.)
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2008-01-11, 17:00:27
But Mad, honestly, although Sweden is really resplendent here, arent UK and US still quantitative-qualitatively way ahead of all other countries ?
Nicky.
If you're talking about the number of bands: Of course they are. It's undeniable true that they hold the most and probably well known prog/rock artists. Mainly because of the size of both countries. The size does matter in this case. :D
It strikes me that USA has more famous metalish prog bands than the UK, like Dream Theater, Savatage and Symphony X to name a few.
While the UK has neo-prog bands like Arena, Marillion, Magenta, Pendragon, IQ and Credo while the only real prog metal band is Threshold. Maybe i forget a few, it happens (no, not Porcupine Tree since that isn't really prog
metal in my opinion).
The reason why i said in random order is because of the fact that i don't consider one country as top league for prog/rock bands.
When i listen to good prog/rock i don't care which country they're from. The quality of the music is far more important to me than the origin.
But as i said before in an other topic, i prefer my music in English. Not in any other language though i won't deny that those are bad.
Hope it helps. ;D
Thanks, Appy and Mad.
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Fri, 2008-01-11, 18:39:10
US: ....
UK: ....
NL: ....
Scandinavia:
- LOTS
This is just to show that the UK and US aren't by definition the number 1 and 2.
Appy, arent you contradicting yourself by listing US and UK first and second, and then making your statement ? If I understand you correctly, you agree with the most of us that UK and US
are the two leading countries.
It would be interesting to know which bands "LOTS" covers over.
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2008-01-11, 19:26:52
The size does matter in this case. :D
;D Mad
Quote from: maddox on Fri, 2008-01-11, 19:26:52
It strikes me that USA has more famous metalish prog bands than the UK, like Dream Theater, Savatage and Symphony X to name a few.
While the UK has neo-prog bands like Arena, Marillion, Magenta, Pendragon, IQ and Credo while the only real prog metal band is Threshold.
I think that is very true, Mad. John said the same.
I would put it such that US groups tend to be heavier and wilder than UK groups, fitting well with the pioneer character of the Americans.
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sat, 2008-01-12, 11:47:53
Appy, arent you contradicting yourself by listing US and UK first and second, and then making your statement ? If I understand you correctly, you agree with the most of us that UK and US are the two leading countries.
No, because then I would have placed numbers before them. I just posted US and UK first, because they are the topic of this discussion.
As you can see by the number of bands, I clearly think NL is my number one when it comes to the rock I personally like best. After that it's the scandinavian countries and then Uk and then US.
I might have a lot of US albums in my collection, but this list of mine is based upon what I listen to most. Hence the exclusion of SX and DT.
QuoteIt would be interesting to know which bands "LOTS" covers over.
- WinterStrain!! (http://www.winterstrain.com/index.html) (Fantastic band, have you had the chance to listen to them Nickster?)
- Flower Kings
- Opeth
- Nightwish
- Sonata Arctica
- Kaipa
And there's the bands I still have to check out from the guys Arjen used for his new Ayreon album. He's got a lot of scandy's on 01011001.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sat, 2008-01-12, 11:47:53
Quote from: moiThe size does matter in this case :D
;D Mad
Sowwy. :-[
;)
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Sat, 2008-01-12, 14:17:53
WinterStrain!! Fantastic band, have you had the chance to listen to them Nickster?
Unfortunately not yet, Appy !
Because of my strained economy >:( my bank has taken my credit card from me, and I have to rummage through CD-stores in Copenhagen and Malmö to find good prog CD's; and I simply havent yet found anything by Winterstrain. So this really has been a strained winter :( ;D
Nicky.
Quote from: maddox on Sat, 2008-01-12, 14:21:49
The size does matter in this case :D
;D Mad
Sowwy. :-[
;)
Are we talkin bout the size of your brain, Mad ?
;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Appelmoes?? on Fri, 2008-01-11, 18:39:10
And besides, SX last album was craptastic imo.
Yeah, I know, Britney Spears' latest is much better 8)
;D
Nicky.
Quote from: Nicky007 on Sun, 2008-01-13, 23:52:30
Yeah, I know, Britney Spears' latest is much better 8)
;D
Nicky.
:o
You mean that album called "parental advisory?" ;D
Quote from: Nicky007 on Fri, 2008-01-11, 14:35:03OK, Paco-smartass, two things:
1. Yes, I do believe that if a self-styled proggie doesnt place US as nb 1 or 2, that's because s/he is oblivious of the great prog that's come from the States during the past forty years. And I'l go to my death with this conviction, and I'm sure Mad and Tom would too ! Und dammit basta !
2. I never f*in ever said that this topic was supposed to be objective. You think I'm an idiot ? Well, dont answer that ! I know that proggies will variously choose - as third - Sweden, Norway, Finland, Canada, Germany, Marshland, Ireland, Poland, and Italy - and I guess that's about it.
Ahhh this is what I need! A heavy "I want to bite your head off"-discussion.
Great! ;D
I won't answer the question about you being an idiot. ;)
And indeed I was being a smartass.
There's still so much new bands to discover. The really good ones sound like they're not of this world!
So I would say "Not Of This World" is first in Rock.
And I really need that album too, yes.
-Paco