Author Topic: Beliefs  (Read 18800 times)

Offline Vanderwoude

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 2005-10-10, 11:16:39 »
On of my main 'beliefs' (maybe I can call it like that) is that I think that there really is a defenition of 'good behaviour,' I explained that earlier in this topic.
And I experienced that a better society starts with yourself, and I hope that more people are going to see this difference between good en bad behaviour.
''I'm a million times removed, from the socially closed world.''
I can imagine, that wouldn't be too nice.

Offline NijntjeRocks

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 2005-10-10, 17:19:16 »
On of my main 'beliefs' (maybe I can call it like that) is that I think that there really is a defenition of 'good behaviour,' I explained that earlier in this topic.
And I experienced that a better society starts with yourself, and I hope that more people are going to see this difference between good en bad behaviour.
I am wondering.. on what do you judge your (or mankinds) definition of good/bad behaviour?
I mean, when is something good and when is something bad. Ofcourse it partially depends on the situation, but do you 'handle' a grey area between good and bad, and on what do you base your definition of good behaviour?

Is it your personal judgement or do you have an external reference for deciding wether somthing is good or bad?
When it is personal judgement, do you trust mankind to handle the same definition as you do? And why should your definition be the definition to use (I can imagine that, when everyone handles his own definition, that there will be discussion)
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Offline Vanderwoude

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 2005-10-10, 17:24:07 »
I was asked many times before about my defenition of good behaviour, and I have thought about it, and I think it's not a too difficult defenition. 'Good behaviour' for me is thinking of other people first, and then thinking about yourself, trying to hurt no one, and doing things to other where you are sure of that these things make them happier. (If you don't know, ask them)

I think this is pretty clear, I think this system of judging is pretty pure, but I am also standing open for other opinions, so surprise me!  ::)
''I'm a million times removed, from the socially closed world.''
I can imagine, that wouldn't be too nice.

Offline NijntjeRocks

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 2005-10-10, 19:47:30 »
oh, right, I've read that ofcourse  ::)

But how far are you willing to go, with thinking about the other?

What if you are driving in a neighbourhood with narrow one-way streets. And a mother dont want you driving there because her children are playing on the streets.
Do you first think about her and her children and go on by foot or are you following your own goal bij driving trough carefully?

Ofcourse a ridiculous situation, but I hope you get the idea, what if there arent much options to think about the other first? when, on what point, do you decide to give your own goals priority above that of others?
Nijntje=Miffy. Original Miffy: (in Dutch)

Offline PH

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 2005-10-10, 19:52:59 »
I won't interfere in this discussion, 'cos it reaches a dead end.
But since you're Dutch you can make this quiz (it's Dutch).
It deals with this kind of questions.
It's fun to do. ;)

Offline Appelmoes??

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 2005-10-10, 19:55:04 »
Link?

Offline PH

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 2005-10-10, 19:59:35 »
Oops... hehehe sorry. ::)

http://sturman.net/quiz/egoisme/index.php?site=lib


For some reason I always forget to add links in my posts.
And attachments in emails etc etc.

Offline Vanderwoude

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 2005-10-10, 20:25:16 »
oh, right, I've read that ofcourse  ::)

But how far are you willing to go, with thinking about the other?

What if you are driving in a neighbourhood with narrow one-way streets. And a mother dont want you driving there because her children are playing on the streets.
Do you first think about her and her children and go on by foot or are you following your own goal bij driving trough carefully?

Ofcourse a ridiculous situation, but I hope you get the idea, what if there arent much options to think about the other first? when, on what point, do you decide to give your own goals priority above that of others?

In that case this woman is damaging an amount of people. (It would be strange if she only wants you to stop). It's like a kind of math. If she can do what she wants, more people are hurt by her. If she can't, the only one whos damaged is her. (Remember that roads are ment to be used to move from one spot to another and not for children to play on)

And also if she only asks you, that wouldn't be fair to. You can't let people do everything they want, that always causes trouble, that's why there is the law.

But in most cases, you can make a really good decision
''I'm a million times removed, from the socially closed world.''
I can imagine, that wouldn't be too nice.

Offline NijntjeRocks

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 2005-10-10, 22:52:59 »
In that case this woman is damaging an amount of people. (It would be strange if she only wants you to stop). It's like a kind of math. If she can do what she wants, more people are hurt by her. If she can't, the only one whos damaged is her. (Remember that roads are ment to be used to move from one spot to another and not for children to play on)

And also if she only asks you, that wouldn't be fair to. You can't let people do everything they want, that always causes trouble, that's why there is the law.

But in most cases, you can make a really good decision
seems fair to me :)

(the dark part of me is thinkin' about many animal-tested medicine in order to save (more) people...  or worse: testcases at a terminal patient like "hes gonna die anyway, and maybe with this case we learn enough to save hundreds..."
Nijntje=Miffy. Original Miffy: (in Dutch)

Offline StarDuster

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 2005-11-15, 21:44:55 »
I believe that a person can instinctively know when he has done something good and when he has done something bad.
The problem is some people can stop caring at some point wether they are doing right or wrong, and eventually they might as well not be able to tell one from the other.
Reviewing this, I think it's quite obvious that religion was very necessary in the humankind history.

If a (historical for the matter..) person wants to eat something and then suddenly sees someone else eating, he may well steal that other person food, he'll feel guilty about it the first time - I'm sure. But after several times he would just get used to it.

Although especially in historical times, even some people today don't understand the peril of hurting someone else. That's why a "Godly" figure is introduced and certain rules were laid. In other words, religion is actually the "law of the past". Ironically - religion itself caused (and still does) many wars and struggles between fanatics of them.

The reason that so many people became Atheists in the last century is that people reached the point of understanding as to what it costs to do evil. I believe humankind is always learning, we learned many hard lessons through all the wars and horrors of the past.

I think it's possible today for people to understand that when you betray your basic instincts as to what is right and wrong, eventually you or your later generations will always pay the price. And there is no set of rules, neither the bible or some constitution that can define what is to be truly a good person - only yourself you can find the way to become that, and I believe everyone have it in their veins, even when the situation is extremely complicated and it's hard to decide what to do - you can use your logic and instinicts, and eventually - even if you went wrong, you can take comfort in the fact that you tried to do the right thing, and that it was yet another lesson  :)



« Last Edit: Tue, 2005-11-15, 21:48:26 by StarDuster »

Offline Appelmoes??

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 2005-11-15, 22:40:21 »
Ironically - religion itself caused (and still does) many wars and struggles between fanatics of them.
*Eeeeeeeeh!* Wrong! People cause war and use religion as a reason. Jesus said "turn the other cheek".

Offline StarDuster

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 2005-11-15, 22:54:07 »
*Eeeeeeeeh!* Wrong! People cause war and use religion as a reason. Jesus said "turn the other cheek".

True. Of course I don't completely blame religion, people are the ones who choose war.
I just pointed out it's ironic so many killing have been done in the name of religion, and still, religion does have a part in all of the killing because religions always makes a certain group of people "higher" than others and that always causes some of these people to act aggressively eventually towards those who won't accept their religion and cease from being "sinners" ...

Offline Peter

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 2005-11-15, 22:55:54 »
True. Of course I don't completely blame religion, people are the ones who choose war.
I just pointed out it's ironic so many killing have been done in the name of religion, and still, religion does have a part in all of the killing because religions always makes a certain group of people "higher" than others and that always causes some of these people to act aggressively eventually towards those who won't accept their religion and cease from being "sinners" ...

As far as I can say that, a true Christian will rather be sad than angry or even aggressive if he cannot convince someone. Which actually means that the "Christian" who raises his hand against someone else isn't really one... at least if he continues to do so.
The King is dead, so worship me!

Offline Appelmoes??

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 2005-11-15, 23:07:14 »
As far as I can say that, a true Christian will rather be sad than angry or even aggressive if he cannot convince someone. Which actually means that the "Christian" who raises his hand against someone else isn't really one... at least if he continues to do so.
As well as a muslim won't come after his "christian dog" neighbour with a choppingknife or something.
War is made by a very few people who are clever and charismatic enough to have followers. And most of the time they do it for more power or money and not for "their" god.

Offline Appelmoes??

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 2005-11-15, 23:30:51 »
Suddenly I'm listening to Universal Soldier performed by Donovan ;)

Quote
He’s 5 foot 2 and he’s 6 feet 4
He fights with missiles and with spears
He’s all of 31 and he’s only 17.
He’s been a soldier for a thousand years

He’s a catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain
A Bhuddist, and a Baptist and Jew.
And he knows he shouldn’t kill
And he knows he always will kill

You’ll for me my friend and me for you

And He’s fighting for Canada.
He’s fighting for France.
He’s fighting for the USA.
And he’s fighting for the Russians.
And he’s fighting for Japan
And he thinks we’ll put an end to war this way.

And He’s fighting for democracy,
He’s fighting for the reds
He says it’s for the peace of all.
He’s the one, who must decide,
who’s to live and who’s to die.
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He’s the one who gives his body
as a weapon of the war.
And without him all this killing can’t go on

He’s the universal soldier
And he really is the blame
His orders comes from
far away no more.

They come from him.
And you and me.
And brothers can’t you see.
This is not the way we put an end to war

Offline StarDuster

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 2005-11-16, 19:49:13 »
Nice song applemoes  ;)

I do agree that neither of the religions you mentioned are inherently aggressive - however, since they have so many followers, there would always be, as you said, clever and charismatic people who would twist religion in order to lead others to "Holy wars" etc.

I do believe that religion is dangerous because it can be interpreted in so many ways. If we take the most basic example - many religions state that followers of it are "the chosen people", and this kind of statements can easily be twisted to "other religions are inferior ... other religions have no right of existance" etc .. which ultimately leads people to violence. Of course I'm not saying I'm against people being religious in general, I just say it's sad how many human crimes were done in "the name" of religions ...


Offline Appelmoes??

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 2005-11-17, 00:20:34 »
A non believer could say that "evil" is a natural part of mankind, so war is a natural thing. So not believing could be dangerous too.

You can look at it from another side. Without beliefs, which stimulate loving and caring about your fellowman, maybe we would have a lot more wars?
You can't simply say religion is dangerous, the man (or woman) which uses religion to collect followers for his/her own ends is dangerous.

Non believers, can say that they are superior because they don't believe something that 'isn't real'.

How many crimes are made out of love, creed, hatred, jealousy etc..?

Again: Religion is just a means, used by people. It can be used in a good way and a bad way. I agree it is a matter of interpretation, but that is also the case with non believers. They also commit crimes y'know ;)

Offline StarDuster

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 2005-11-17, 18:40:31 »
A non believer could say that "evil" is a natural part of mankind, so war is a natural thing. So not believing could be dangerous too.

You can look at it from another side. Without beliefs, which stimulate loving and caring about your fellowman, maybe we would have a lot more wars?
You can't simply say religion is dangerous, the man (or woman) which uses religion to collect followers for his/her own ends is dangerous.

Non believers, can say that they are superior because they don't believe something that 'isn't real'.

How many crimes are made out of love, creed, hatred, jealousy etc..?

Again: Religion is just a means, used by people. It can be used in a good way and a bad way. I agree it is a matter of interpretation, but that is also the case with non believers. They also commit crimes y'know ;)

I agree with you regarding everything you said except I have one remark - belief doesn't have to involve being religious, I'm saying that because you responded about my statement that religions can be dangerous with saying that "Non believing is dangerous as well" ...  ;)
The fact that a person is not religious doesn't mean he doesn't have beliefs like, for example, that all people were born equal, and that it is wrong to hurt another person in any way.

I'm feeling weird having this discussion, like we just state our opinions and don't really debate anything. Well, maybe it's just because we're two people seeing things from different angles, but still not really disagreeing with each other on anything  :D
« Last Edit: Thu, 2005-11-17, 18:42:44 by StarDuster »

Offline Smegal

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 2005-12-01, 15:38:20 »
I place my relieve into lots of things
MY PRECIOUS

Offline NijntjeRocks

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 2005-12-01, 20:39:17 »
I place my relieve into lots of thRings
:P
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Offline keyboardistmatt

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 2005-12-03, 15:46:13 »
That's a belief?

...Is this just a dream I'm in?

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Offline Appelmoes??

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 2005-12-03, 17:06:16 »
The world is comming to it's end, even topic's like these aren't save any more :'(

Offline keyboardistmatt

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 2005-12-03, 17:34:04 »
That's a shame.  Real shame. :(
...Is this just a dream I'm in?

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Offline Smegal

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 2005-12-03, 20:04:39 »
The only real belief i have is the fact you are born you live then you die. :-\



« Last Edit: Sat, 2005-12-03, 20:16:48 by Smegal »
MY PRECIOUS

Offline Appelmoes??

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Re: Beliefs
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 2005-12-03, 20:08:53 »
Seriously Smegal, I would like it very much if this topic could stay clean of offtopic remarks.